Diversity changes

[Stik]

Just gonna leave this here.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/06 ... dated.html

[JadedDM]

I don't have either of those adventures, nor have I run or played in them, but these changes sound fine to me. I understand they hired an actual Romani advisor for the changes to Curse of Strahd.

[garhkal]

All this cancel culture BULLSHIT is getting too damn much.

[New Hegdeh]

Cancel what?

[New Hegdeh]

Other NPCs have some changes to their description as well: Ezmerelda, an NPC with a lower leg prosthesis (having replaced it after a werewolf bite), no longer “takes care to hide it from view,” and is not implied to be ashamed of it. And in the Haunted One background, the wording on one of the bonds has been changed to be more gender inclusive: I have a child to protect. I must make the world a safer place for him (or her)” has been changed to “I have a child to protect. I must make the world a safer place for them.”

Hahaha, that's so faqing ridiculous

(and Ezmerelda is not a name, the name is Esmeralda, and its Spanish not Romanian thus not vistani)

where Chult was once described as “a distant and exotic land,” now it is simply “a distant land.”

Since when is "exotic" a bad word? It merely means "strange but erotic", or something along those lines. And strange is relative.

And tribal isn't a bad word either, it means "belonging or appropriate for a tribe" and a tribe is a type of social organization.

[garhkal]

Since when is "exotic" a bad word? It merely means "strange but erotic", or something along those lines. And strange is relative.

And tribal isn't a bad word either, it means "belonging or appropriate for a tribe" and a tribe is a type of social organization.

Since the whiney libtards, started having the monopoly on what is and isn't racist..

[JadedDM]

Hahaha, that's so faqing ridiculous

Which part is ridiculous, and what is ridiculous about it?

(and Ezmerelda is not a name, the name is Esmeralda, and its Spanish not Romanian thus not vistani)

It's something you see a lot in high fantasy, though. You take a real name, change or add/remove a few letters, to make it sound more fantasy-ish. Like Game of Thrones, where you have characters named named Eddard instead of Edward or Robb instead of Rob.

Since when is "exotic" a bad word? It merely means "strange but erotic", or something along those lines. And strange is relative.

And tribal isn't a bad word either, it means "belonging or appropriate for a tribe" and a tribe is a type of social organization.

It's less to do with the words' definitions, then how they've been used in recent times. I mean, technically the word 'negro' is literally just the latin word for 'black.' But the reason it's bad to call black people that word is because that word has been used for centuries to demean them.

In this case, 'exotic' is often used to 'other' people of color. As you said yourself, exotic basically means 'strange.' And if you think about it for a minute, you can probably see how referring to another culture (or in this case, a fantasy culture that is based on real life ones) as 'strange' can be, if nothing else, at least ethnocentric.

Likewise, the word 'tribal' is often used to mean 'primitive,' 'uncivilized' and even 'savage.'

Since the whiney libtards, started having the monopoly on what is and isn't racist..

And who do you believe should have that monopoly, I wonder? Do you even know what you're so angry about? Do you even play 5E? Do these changes affect your life in even the most slightest way, negatively or otherwise? Or are you just mad for the sake of being mad?

[New Hegdeh]

Hahaha, that's so faqing ridiculous

Which part is ridiculous, and what is ridiculous about it?

That they focus on innocent words when they could be focusing on more important features

(and Ezmerelda is not a name, the name is Esmeralda, and its Spanish not Romanian thus not vistani)

It's something you see a lot in high fantasy, though. You take a real name, change or add/remove a few letters, to make it sound more fantasy-ish. Like Game of Thrones, where you have characters named named Eddard instead of Edward or Robb instead of Rob.

I find that name more offensive than anything else they are changing, it says "we rather lump you Spaniards and hispanophones with the Romanian and slavs that acknolwedge you are distinct people with your own features and I rather misspell your names than learn the basics of your worldwide-agreed-upon easy phonetic rules"

You want to change how Esmeralda is written without being abusive? It can be written "Hezmeralda" (Silent H, same phonetics) or Emeralda (and be anglicized) or Esmeraldiya (and sound as a linguistically deviant version of Esmeralda)

Since when is "exotic" a bad word? It merely means "strange but erotic", or something along those lines. And strange is relative.

And tribal isn't a bad word either, it means "belonging or appropriate for a tribe" and a tribe is a type of social organization.

It's less to do with the words' definitions, then how they've been used in recent times. I mean, technically the word 'negro' is literally just the latin word for 'black.' But the reason it's bad to call black people that word is because that word has been used for centuries to demean them.

In this case, 'exotic' is often used to 'other' people of color. As you said yourself, exotic basically means 'strange.' And if you think about it for a minute, you can probably see how referring to another culture (or in this case, a fantasy culture that is based on real life ones) as 'strange' can be, if nothing else, at least ethnocentric.

Likewise, the word 'tribal' is often used to mean 'primitive,' 'uncivilized' and even 'savage.'

"Negro" is actually Spanish for "black" (latin word is "niger" I think), but in English that "e" is the same "e" as in "reed" while in Spanish that "e" is the same "e" as in "red". Spelling aside the demeaning terms sound different, and yeah, exotic is an ethnocentric concept, but I wouldn't be offended if yo usaid lucumas are exotic to you nor you should be offended if I say that eating veal (that's the meat of the deer? Isn't it?) is exotic to me. Exotic is relative because strange is relative. But strange has a negative implication, exotic always implies that something is appealing.

Tribal can be "primitive" and "uncivilized" and "savage" in some contexts in as much as it is synonymous with sectarian or partisan (tribalism is basically partisanship, identity politics on its worst form) but it depends on the context.

In general we need terms to mean the best thing they can mean rather than the worst they have been made to mean.

I despise nazis but for that reason I wish a strong movement where made to make the swastika recover its original meaning from before Hitler's cultural appropriation of it (see, the term "cultural appropriation" can be used in good ways), but that requires a lot of effort and there are more pressing matters.

Since the whiney libtards, started having the monopoly on what is and isn't racist..

And who do you believe should have that monopoly, I wonder? Do you even know what you're so angry about? Do you even play 5E? Do these changes affect your life in even the most slightest way, negatively or otherwise? Or are you just mad for the sake of being mad?

As part of the liberal left (by worldwide standards, not by those of the US that uses the misnomer "socialist" for the democrats which are centre right wing by worldwide standards) I should be offended at the use of the term libtard, but I am more offended by the idea that one should be playing 5E before one can get concerned with this. When efforts are placed in minutae time is taken away from handling the most important and pressing matters and those abuses persist, its fishing for the red herring when the white whale is nearby about to land on the shore.

I am interested in Romani and wish I could know more about them, to the point that when I went back to university and we were tasked with some ethnological studies I asked thep rofessor about doing an investigation on Romani, he dismissed it because attempts to investigate them had been a waste of time in the past due to swindlers fooling the students and their general wish to be left alone and remain myserious (more or less). In ravenloft Vistani are wicked, the only positive role of Romani in AD&D comes in the form of the gypsy-bard. More admirable Romani would be better than having them as non-exotic... But of course, vistani are the Romanian Romani (Romanian is not the same as Romani, and to be even more specific, they are the Transylvanian Romani) from Stoker's Dracula who were charmed by a vampire, not the Romani as a whole (not even every Transylvanian Romani, just one family group).

[JadedDM]

That they focus on innocent words when they could be focusing on more important features

Such as...?

Also, words are not always so innocent. They can do real harm when abused. Even very minor stuff, like the words in a D&D book, can add up over time.

"Negro" is actually Spanish for "black" (latin word is "niger" I think)...

Ah, that's right. I knew I should have looked it up first before committing to it.

In general we need terms to mean the best thing they can mean rather than the worst they have been made to mean.

Yeah, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, words and symbols change meaning whether we like it or not. Originally, the words 'idiot' and 'moron' were both clinical terms for the mentally deficient. But now they are just insults. Same with 'retard.' Sometimes a word can be reclaimed (I still remember when 'queer' was considered quite offensive), but it's super rare and more times than not, once something is abused, it stays that way forever.

[garhkal]

And who do you believe should have that monopoly, I wonder? Do you even know what you're so angry about? Do you even play 5E? Do these changes affect your life in even the most slightest way, negatively or otherwise? Or are you just mad for the sake of being mad?

To me, no one should be dictating what words are 'offensive/hate speech'. But more and more it seems the liberal's (leftists) are the ones trying to define what is and isn't offensive, and anyone who says otherwise, often gets labeled bigots, racists, sexists etc..

[JadedDM]

So being labeled a "bigot, racist, sexist, etc.," offends you? Aren't you then defining those words as 'offensive?'

[New Hegdeh]

That they focus on innocent words when they could be focusing on more important features

Such as...?

The vistani being untrustworthy no matter how much you sugar coat the words used to describe them, stuff like that. But that in this game, even worse is in real life the cops that kill people for their race or the people that calls the cops for someone being being black, that should be fined (and the fine must be expensive) in the case of first offender and repetitive offenders (those jimmy's that call wolf too much) should do time in prison.

Also, words are not always so innocent. They can do real harm when abused. Even very minor stuff, like the words in a D&D book, can add up over time.

I dont believe death by thousand cuts is possible with paper cut level wounds caused by very minor stuff regarding words but I understand words can do great deal of damage, but agreeing that things like Mein Kempf must be censored and allowed as reading only for adults as part of a universtiy class is not the same as agreeing that these words are harmful, AD&D has never been Mein Kampf, its worst offense which I know of is the vistani and one instance of one of them being a drunkard isn't what I am thinking of.

"Negro" is actually Spanish for "black" (latin word is "niger" I think)...

Ah, that's right. I knew I should have looked it up first before committing to it.

but the pronunciation in Spanish and English are quite different, its not the same to say "negro" with the "e" of "red" that to say "negro" with the "e" of "reed", like "Esmeralda" has the "a" of "cat" but "Ezmerelda" has the "e" of "pet".

In general we need terms to mean the best thing they can mean rather than the worst they have been made to mean.

Yeah, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, words and symbols change meaning whether we like it or not. Originally, the words 'idiot' and 'moron' were both clinical terms for the mentally deficient. But now they are just insults. Same with 'retard.' Sometimes a word can be reclaimed (I still remember when 'queer' was considered quite offensive), but it's super rare and more times than not, once something is abused, it stays that way forever.

We must work hard on reclaiming words than on nullifying them, not with ancient words from prescientific eras like "idiot" and "moron" but with recent words fresh in our minds. Reclaiming worlds change them entality of people, deleting them is just a co op.

As for Garkhal's point of view I cannot speak on his name but I think it seems to him that "offensive" is an objective value and thus subjective values are not to be tolerated. And I can do an ad absurdum and say, imagine someone dressed all in black and you asked them if they are mourners (not sure if its an actual word but the meaning is obvious, someone that is mourning), and they say you offended them... It would piss you off to be told not to say something that innocent to that person due to their own personal reasons, wouldn't it? Offense is partially subjective howver and not fully objective but we must learn to negotiate the limits. But I wonder if people on each side are willing to.

[garhkal]

As for Garkhal's point of view I cannot speak on his name but I think it seems to him that "offensive" is an objective value and thus subjective values are not to be tolerated. And I can do an ad absurdum and say, imagine someone dressed all in black and you asked them if they are mourners (not sure if its an actual word but the meaning is obvious, someone that is mourning), and they say you offended them... It would piss you off to be told not to say something that innocent to that person due to their own personal reasons, wouldn't it? Offense is partially subjective howver and not fully objective but we must learn to negotiate the limits. But I wonder if people on each side are willing to.

ITs more the inequity on who gets to label what words offensive, and the inequitability on how they're enforced..

Take the "N: word for example. HOW MANY hundreds of thousands of times is it said in all the rap songs out there, or in the various gang focused films (new jack city for example), where blacks are saying it to one another, and there's no problem. BUT IF a white/asian or latino says it, in the SAME MANNER, and all hell breaks loose..
Or how 'hate crime laws' seem to ONLY get applied, if its a 'white doing it'...

[JadedDM]

So you're mad because you cannot say the n-word without being labeled racist? You want the 'freedom' to use that word as much as you want without consequence? Why is that?

Also enforced by whom? The police? Do you think you'll be thrown in prison for saying that word?

[Stik]

This discussion has gone very far off the rails.

Words have power. That is a fact. Words shape thought (after all, we think in words), and shape conversation, and steer emotions. Words MATTER.

That being said, my intention in the original post was to point out that Wizbro is making some narrative changes that, in the great scheme of things, are unnecessary. This discussion has gone VERY far away from that, and is beginning to get confrontational.

I am locking down this thread.