A Wild Star Wars discussion appeared!

[Crimson-Kobold]

HAY! Gonna talk Star Wars for a mo.

Just to vent, cuz keep runnin into a tired argument regardin the new movies. And that be people cryin about "Rey is a Mary Sue because she can use the Force without TRRAAAAAININNNNNIIIINNNNGGGGG!1!"

An Imma gonna vent about how that argument is garbage. Dis will upset many Star Wars fans, but like good healin, gotta rip that bandaid off. (Not medical professional, plz no bully over dis)

Trainin. Is not. Important. To using the Force. Dere. Said it. Luke's trainin in Empire was about one goal: Openin' his mind to great possibilities. Becuz he wuz holdin imself back. Two moments, before and after da X-Wing lifting, lay out whole ding simple.

"Do. Or Do not. There is no try."

If trainin' is sooooo important, would dis not be false? You train to get better at something, but if it's a do or no thing, does dat not make training pointless? It not like you progress skill to x point, den yer attempt might work, no, you do or don't. Why?

That leads to second moment.

Luke: "I don't believe it..."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

Holy bantha poodoo. Dat the real reveal of Empire Strikes Back. Usin' da Force ain't about trainin'. It about belief. It not enough to know the Force exists, or dat you can use it. No! Ya gotta believe in wat you tryin' to make it do. Luke didn't believe da Force could lift X-Wing. Thus, he did not lift it. Yoda believed da Force could do it, thus, he lifted it.

Let's compare da leadin' characters of da trilogies.

Anakin: Young impressionable mind. Believes Jedis can never die, dat dey can do anyding. Also might be chosen one, but not important. Wat important is dat he believe he can accomplish wat he does. He Pod Races. Da Force graces him, he believe it him, thou it just the Force bein' nice to him, but he believe! An so he do.

He also remotes views, wit no trainin'. Flies ship by accident he had no trainin' in, crashes in just right spot, den BOOM hits right buttons to fire right weapons at right moment to defeat WHOLE DROID ARMY IN ONE SHOT. Den flies ship he never flew before out, while screamin' "Now dis is pod racin'!"

Luke: Told to ignore all da fanciful tales of Clone Wars. Repeatedly told Force not real. Never really sees Force in action before Mentor dies. Dis upbringin', probably creates block in his head. His world view cannot comprehend wat Force can do. Thus needs training to unlearn wat he learn.

Rey: Naive. Dreamer. Looks for larger world, in hope parents come back fer her. Hears many tales of Jedi, no one disputes these tales of the legendary Luke Skywalker. Gets told by legendary smuggler and Rebel General dat all dem stories are true. Holy bantha poodoo, dey real? Amazing!

Den! She has Force used on her, in various ways! She experiences, and SEES what Force can do! That naive mind tinks back to all da tales she heard, that wuz told were all true. She dreamer. She can dream big!

She don't need trainin'. She already believer.

Kylo? He cynical. Moody. Dis messes up his ability to believe. How girl stronger den him? No wai! Get mad! Unbalanced! Daddy issues! Uncle Chewie shot 'im with powerful rifle!

An' people wonder how she beat big baad Klyo Ren? PWAH!

Like me said. Trainin' not as important as Star Wars Grognards tink it is. Believe an' faith is all dat needed.

In hindsight, should not write dis like a spaztic Kobold. Oh wells, damage done, as is ventin'. Weh!

[Cole]

Hummm, I'm not goin for dat sheit!

Luke had training (good wit sword), Chewy had training (good wit x-bow), Han had training (good at flying, guns), Kylo had training (good wit sword), Kenobi had training (good wit sword). Rey had no training (magically good wit sword)

No matter how much you WILL or believe in anything you aren't just magically good at it. Even Ani had training flying pods (he tells you he's raced "many times" previous to winning. He just believes he can win and the FORCE gives him the advantage he needs to do that

If training not needed, why have a "Jedi Temple" specifically made for training ?

I say new movies "poor writing" like the Kobold above.

[Crimson-Kobold]

Dere is something more to Rey of Jakku thou. First, she was terrible wit lightsaber. But note how she fight after they clash on the cliff. She no longer fight like Rey.

She fought like Anakin. Da overheard slash, da pacing like predator. She was, essentially, channelling Anakin during his time as he was in process of falling to da dark side. Dis wuz very deliberate by film makers.

The throne fight, she was swinging like a wild animal, just barely keeping foes at bay. Da old murican approach: if I dunno what I'm doing, neither do you!

To say she's good wit a lightsaber is, honestly, a bit far fetched. But da Force, being a great equalizer, can compensate. Da where faith and belief comes into play, along with one oddah factor, which I alluded to in dis post already. Da Dark Side.

I tink she's been channelin the dark side of da Force. And da we gonna see a great an unique take on the struggle wit da dark side.

In Anakin, we saw someone give in to the Dark Side despite knowing it wrong. In Luke we saw someone struggle wit da temptation of the Dark Side. In Rey, we will, I tink, see some go to the dark side while believin dey in da right da whole time, an the realization of dis will be a soul crushing moment.

The Last Jedi was built around da idea of failure, and how one responds to it. Tinking Reys failure not play put yet to its fullest, an will be the biggest failure in da trilogy.

Hopin I is right on dis, and Ep IX becomes one of dose entries into da franchise dat be 'membered for years fondly.

EDIT: dis how scatter brained I be. Moved away from original point in one post!

Let go back to trainin. Here da ting. Using da Force is easy. So easy, toddlers can be taught. We saw child soldiers fer cryin out loud. Anakin could remote view without instructions. Throughout years da Star Wars be around, we see many examples, in both legends and canon, of people are are naturally able to use the Force without much instruction.

Really, Luke is the exception. He da only main character force user who struggles to use da Force. In part due to him serving as the audience's introduction to da Force, but also becuz of his upbringing.

He grew up in time where knowledge of Force was suppressed. Even his uncle refused to tell him about his father. Luke had no tales to use to create the idea in his head wat da Force is and wat it can do. His world view is very grounded in da reality he exists in.

Despite all dat, he wuz able to will dose torpedoes into da exhaust vent. When did Obiwan teach dat technique?

There's no "push projectiles into small hole" training, or if there wuz, Luke never got it. Yet he did it. Becuz he listened to Obiwan, let his conciouskself go, and let the Force do wat it needed to do.

In short, the trainin is about reachin a mind set, and it wuz 'specially hard for Luke. Suspect dis why Jedi have age limit on recruits. Older dey are, da more dey need to unlearn. Trainin just a means to da end. To reach dat mindset to allow deir imagination fuel da Force.

In dis way, da Force is limitless.

[JadedDM]

I can't understand most of what CK is saying, but I do appreciate the new Star Wars movie at least trying to shake things up. One of my biggest criticisms of the franchise is that it just keeps repeating the same plot points, again and again, to the point that you already know what's going to happen long before you ever sit down in the theater.

To anyone who criticizes the new movies as having bad writing, Mary Sue protagonists, etc., I can't help but raise an eyebrow. Have you...never seen Star Wars before? Do you not remember Jar Jar Binks stumbling around on the battlefield or Ewoks taking down massive machines? Do you not remember that Anakin was literally so super-special-awesome that the Force itself created him in his mother's womb? That he could pilot a fighter as a child? That Luke became a Jedi Master in the span of, what, a couple of years, despite largely being self-taught (after Yoda died, I'm not sure how he kept training).

Let's face it. Star Wars has always been bad.

[garhkal]

I can't understand most of what CK is saying,

True dat. My first time trying to read it, i was wondering. Is this guy trying to speak ebonics??

[Crimson-Kobold]

Alright alright, I'll dial it back a bit. Was jus having some fun, since, like...no one has been postin for days.

Ok, Long story short. Training in the ways of the Force is not as big a deal as people make it out to be. It's frankly so easy, you literally can teach it to toddlers. Even Luke, with his non-existent level of training, was able to grasp the concepts enough after a day or so of travelling with Obi Wan that he was able to guide unguided torpedoes into a small target. "One in a million!" said Han, probably thinking Luke used his computer.

Using the Force is easy. The problem lies in letting yourself trust in it. A lot of Luke's struggles with using the Force is due to his preconceptions of what is and isn't possible. Remember, he grew up with knowledge about the Force being suppressed, even his uncle refused to say anything about his Father. He had virtually nothing to go on for visualizing what the Force could do. All he got even from Obi Wan was vague hints that it's powerful and can do things for you.

This is what I've gathered: To use the Force, you need a small number of factors.

-Ability to interact with the Force. aka be Force Sensitive. This trait may or may not be trainable, but it is certainly something that can naturally occur in people, and many often accidentally learn to use their powers with no training, like Anakin precoging for Pod Racing, or remote viewing in the Council meeting.
-Knowledge in, and belief in the Force. You have to know it exists, and you have to believe in it. Maybe not in the specific terms of "THE FORCE", but simply that magic can, and does, exist.
-Trusting that you connection in the Force will allow it to do what you wish it to. Luke learned this one in the trench.

and finally...

-Believing what you ask of the Force is possible. This is the huge one. This is the major reveal in Empire Strikes Back.

Luke could not move the X-Wing, not because of lack of training. It was lack of faith in the Force. He couldn't conceive that he could lift something like a starfighter like that. The Force is strong, but not THAT strong, right? Those doubts weighed him down, and prevented him from lifting it.

Luke's training was never about teaching technique. It was about pushing him to his limits, so he wouldn't think about what wasn't possible.

Now, it's true, the Force came to Anakin and Rey MUCH easier. In terms of film making, we've already had a trilogy that had all the Force training, we really don't need another. It's kinda like seeing Spider-mans origin for the nth time.

In universe, however, both Anakin and Rey had very different childhoods from Luke, when it come to knowledge and belief in the Force. That the Force existed was common knowledge. Both also had tales of heroic Jedi saving those in need. They both had influential figures in their lives come out and a say "Yeah, all that cool stuff? Totally possible, it's pretty rad."

The two of them were basically half way to being competent Force users by the time we're introduced to them. Hell, Anakin was already using the Force, and might I add, with no formal instruction. It was instinctual.

And Rey had the benefit of having a Force user probe her mind, in which she instinctively resisted, and that's when she realized "Oh, hey...I can do that too.", then assimilated some of Kylo's memories by accident.

At that point, she had nearly everything she needed. All she needed was trusting her connection to the Force, something she picked up on pretty quick when she manipulated the Stormtrooper.

Like I said, training is not that important. Belief and faith matter more.

Let's pop back to something Cole said:

If training not needed, why have a "Jedi Temple" specifically made for training ?

We need to remember this about the Order. It's not just about training warrior space monks/wizards. It's a religion, what it is teaching...is how to live within the Force. Look at how they operate: get a bunch of kids, show them how to use the Force, because it's easy to teach it to kids. Then drill into their heads that they have the ultimate responsibility, to ensure that they never lose control of their power. See where I'm going?

The training isn' about technique. It's about self control and understanding your place in the world.

Let's touch on another thing Cole said, now that people seem to be getting more active now.

Luke had training (good wit sword), Chewy had training (good wit x-bow), Han had training (good at flying, guns), Kylo had training (good wit sword), Kenobi had training (good wit sword). Rey had no training (magically good wit sword)

Rey did have some experience with fighting. Just not against trained swordsmen. Which is why she fled for most of the fight. She didn't know how to fight Kylo, even in his weakened state.

So, yeah, she DID magically get good with the sword. We're dealing with literal space magic that does what the plot compels it to do. In this instance, she drew on the blades own experiences. Like I mentioned in my other reply to Cole. She uses the same moves as Anakin! this gif on instagram really showcases this

While some might pull the knee jerk "they did it for nostalgia" card, I think these were very deliberate choices to hint at where Rey is going as a character.

The sea cave cemented this in my mind. Many people look at it, and thing "Yeah, she bested it!", but I find myself thinking, "did she?" She went in with a phrase in her head from Kylo Ren. "Let the past die. Kill it if you must." and how did her vision end? With the shadowy figures representing her parents dissipating as she walks forward. Literally fulfilling Kylo's words.

And who does she turn to immediately afterwards? Not Luke, no, she goes to Kylo, and holds hands with him, and really starts connecting with him. While she might have rebuked his offer, I think she is playing at the edge of the Dark Side, and due to her head strongness, has pushed away anyone who could help her deal with those dangers.

Meanwhile, Kylo looks more and more unfulfilled with his actions. He's killed his father, he's nearly crushed the Resistance, he's taken control from his master, yet he's the saddest looking guy at the end of the movie.

My guess? Rey will come extremely close to, if not outright, fall to the Dark Side, and Kylo will be forced out of the First Order, who goes turbo nazi mode and becomes even more depraved now that they don't have to do what the silly Force users tell them to (objectively, all their losses in the new movies is generally tied to the hubris of Snoke and Kylo), and ends up taking up his own name and starts atoning for his actions.

To anyone who criticizes the new movies as having bad writing, Mary Sue protagonists, etc., I can't help but raise an eyebrow. Have you...never seen Star Wars before? Do you not remember Jar Jar Binks stumbling around on the battlefield or Ewoks taking down massive machines? Do you not remember that Anakin was literally so super-special-awesome that the Force itself created him in his mother's womb? That he could pilot a fighter as a child? That Luke became a Jedi Master in the span of, what, a couple of years, despite largely being self-taught (after Yoda died, I'm not sure how he kept training).

People will dance around those points all day long. I really should just nuke my Reddit account, just a bunch of morons on that site lol.

Let's face it. Star Wars has always been bad.

As long as it's fun, who cares if it's bad or stupid? People take the franchise WAY too seriously.

EDIT: Been too long, forgot how to do da code for quotes right, haw.

[JadedDM]

As long as it's fun, who cares if it's bad or stupid? People take the franchise WAY too seriously.

Exactly. They're movies about space wizards who do magic with the power of their feelings, which were given to them by tiny, living things in their blood. I don't know why people take them so darn seriously.

[Crimson-Kobold]

My favourite beef people go back to is how the Last Jedi RUINED hyperspace and space warfare because of the hyperspace jump. Bruh, you had Jedi throwing entire fleets of Star Destroyers out of systems in the old canon. Dont act like the old stuff was Shakespeare lol.

[JadedDM]

Teaser for Star Wars 9 dropped, including it's title.


youtu.be/adzYW5DZoWs

[Crimson-Kobold]

Very interesting. I'm surprised that they just had her rebuild the saber exactly the same way...unless that's a dream or something? That whole sequence was strange.

The reveal at the end, I honestly didn't think they would go that route. Now I'm really interested to see where they go with this. With that title, there's a few different ways they could go, IMO. Could be Luke, but my gut suggests a redemption/atonement arc for Ben.

[TigerStripedDog]

I think there are valid points on both sides. The Last Jedi was both a good movie and a terrible movie at the same time. You could almost feel the parts that were from Rian Johnson and the parts that were demanded by the Studio. I actually felt bad for the guy - clearly the folks at Disney have an agenda... a script so to speak, and they are making sure people stick to it. Even still, I liked it better than The Force Awakens - because at least it wasn't a direct rehash of A New Hope.

I do agree that people get too nitpicky. Star Wars as a cohesive space drama lost me when they had space ships banking through the vacuum of space... not to mention the sounds of explosions. That said - some amount of consistency in the universe is important. Sure - there are space wizards, and a mystical force that unites everything... and all that is hogwash... but we can immerse ourselves in that mythos and suspend belief for the sake of entertainment as long as that universe still plays by some rules. What the rules are exactly isn't as important as the rules being consistent. And with the Hyperspace as a weapon thing - they weren't consistent.

Tiger

[JadedDM]

Even still, I liked it better than The Force Awakens - because at least it wasn't a direct rehash of A New Hope.

Same here. The reason I liked The Last Jedi so much is it broke the pattern that Star Wars always follows. Rey isn't the chosen one, she's a nobody. Luke isn't a sainted hero, it's a broken old man with a lot of baggage. And so on. Which is why I hope Abrams doesn't go back and retcon all of that stuff, because it actually made the series a little more interesting.

[Marcus]

There was definitely some good but also some bad in that trailer, but a lot of my opinion is based on the way I relate to the series in a D&D sort of way. I view the characters as a party. A lot of people didn't like the recent Star Wars movies, but this go-around that really begins with The Force Awakens. To many, the story was so close to Star Wars (Episode IV) that it felt like nothing was ever accomplished by Luke and the heroes. I accept the idea that there is some sort of eternal cycle, but if you love those old movies and characters, you want to feel like they are special and they accomplished something. On to why this matters for the new trailer:

There were a lot of fan theories circulating before The Last Jedi that maybe Snoke was The Emperor and I really hoped not. After watching The Force Awakens, even if there were a lot of similarities to past films, as long as The Emperor was gone, the original series and the main characters who populated it accomplished something. After The Emperor laughs in the background at the end of the trailer for Episode IX, I am left thinking if he is anything more than an evil force ghost, nothing Luke and Han and Leia and Chewy did mattered. I know they can't change the darkness that is in people and they can't change the primary way we think or the way we interact with one another, but they were supposed to have at least gotten rid of one power-hungry maniac who was personally responsible for so much evil. It is the epitome of conceit because it does change everything about the great movies of the original trilogy: The bad guy will have won. I know a lot of people kept writing and reading books and comics and there were Emperor clones and all sorts of crazy stuff, but as far as the film trilogy was concerned, the heroes beat the odds and defeated the great evil. The prequels do nothing to upset this, as The Emperor is still the biggest evil and we know he goes down and his main man is Vader and we know he is redeemed when it is all said and done.

[Crimson-Kobold]

What the rules are exactly isn't as important as the rules being consistent. And with the Hyperspace as a weapon thing - they weren't consistent.

What wasn't consistent about it?

Funny thing about the jump: they seeded lore about how Hyperspace works in various other mediums leading up the the Last Jedi. Off hand comments from characters in novels, visual effects from the TV series, while insignificant by themselves, paint a larger picture when connected. Essentially, I believe what happens isn't so much ramming the other ship, it was the massive release of radiation from entering the hole to hyperspace that causes the catastrophic damage, but it's only capable of the scale of damage because of the size of the ship doing it, snub fighters wouldn't have as large an effect.

Granted, they should have found some way to explain that in the film somehow, perhaps Chekhov's gunning it somehow earlier. But there does appear to be a thought out explanation for what happens there.

A lot of people didn't like the recent Star Wars movies, but this go-around that really begins with The Force Awakens. To many, the story was so close to Star Wars (Episode IV) that it felt like nothing was ever accomplished by Luke and the heroes.

How so? They toppled a galactic Empire, helped set up a replacement Government, and maintained relative peace for three decades. Considering the chaos of the Clone Wars, and the oppressiveness of the Empire, to be able to establish what they did is utterly remarkable. Just look to countries on our world, and how they fair when a despot is removed. Iraq led to a lengthy war that gave rise to one of the most barbaric terrorist organizations in modern history, Libya is still a gong show without Ghaddfi. Removing the head of state who has set themselves up to be the ultimate governing power, and establishing a functional government without it devolving into warlords vying for power is incredibly difficult. The Rebellion, with Luke, Leia, and Han leading the way, accomplished that feat.

After The Emperor laughs in the background at the end of the trailer for Episode IX, I am left thinking if he is anything more than an evil force ghost, nothing Luke and Han and Leia and Chewy did mattered.

Even if the Senateis still alive somehow, he's been removed from the galactic scene for three decades. Being free of his direct influence for that long is certainly a significant accomplishment. I would not call him coming back three decades later as him winning, nor would I say it undoes what our heroes have accomplished.

As for him being a ghost, I've noticed the current story group likes to seed ideas in other media, and one such related concept in this regard is a Sith Lord named Momin, whose essence was ingrained in his mask, and allowed him to subvert and take control of anyone wearing it. So it may very well be something akin to that.

Hell, maybe he found a way into the World Between Worlds before dying, and accidentally thrusted himself into the future. They've certainly given themselves more than a few different options for his return in any case.

On a big related note, apparently the recent novel "Master and Apprentice" has revealed the previously undisclosed Prophecy of the Chosen One.

‘She who will be born to darkness will give birth to darkness.’
‘When the kyber that is not kyber shines forth, the time of prophecy will be at hand.’

‘One will ascend to the highest of the Jedi despite the foreboding of those who would serve with him.’

'Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless.
The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire.
When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine.
A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.'

It cannot be by chance they would drop this text just as the hype machine starts for Rise of Skywalker.

[garhkal]

Even still, I liked it better than The Force Awakens - because at least it wasn't a direct rehash of A New Hope.

Same here. The reason I liked The Last Jedi so much is it broke the pattern that Star Wars always follows. Rey isn't the chosen one, she's a nobody. Luke isn't a sainted hero, it's a broken old man with a lot of baggage. And so on. Which is why I hope Abrams doesn't go back and retcon all of that stuff, because it actually made the series a little more interesting.

How can rey not be the chosen one, with all the force she seems to be able to use?