Collecting and ebay

[Billy_Buttcheese]

I am somewhat of an AD&D collector and have in my collection enough material to last literally the rest of my life and then some. That said, I always have an eye open for more on ebay. Over the course of the last few years, I've reached an interesting conclusion. I find that all of the classic stuff (OD&D & AD&D) inevitably sells for more than any new stuff, sometimes much more. Even when not in the best of conditions. I recently watched a ragged, worn-out copy of T1-4 sell for over $75, a copy I wouldn't have given $20 for and certainly not IMO in collectible condition, just a playing copy. Then I look at brand new Pathfinder and 3-5 Edition stuff get passed over constantly, even when sellers are practically giving them away. I somehow find great satisfaction in this. I have had my copies of 3.0 PHB, DMG, & MM for sale several times for literally pennies and not even a "Watch item". I guess I'll donate them to the library or something since no one seems interested in purchasing them in spite of being in new condition. Any one else wonder why this might be? Is the old stuff really that much better or the new stuff that much worse? P.S. I'm not trying to start an editions wars, just interested in hearing opinions.

[JadedDM]

I mean, it makes sense. The older a book is, the fewer intact copies likely exist, so the harder it is to acquire, so the higher price they are.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

That's because everything from 3E on is crap. Literally. Every time I go to Half Priced Books I see shitloads of that garbage, much of it in unused condition. Nobody wants it. I asked at one store about this and they said it never sells. They try transferring it to other stores, etc. Some of them won't even buy that crap at pennies on the book at this point.

On top of that, I think WOTC overprinted a lot of those editions. My suspicion is that 3E and beyond never "sold" as well as they claimed. They "sold" a shitload of stock to stores, but I think much of that remained un-purchased by actual customers. My theory is strongly bolstered by the tonnage of leftover, unused crap that turns up like sand at the beach every time I walk into a book store.

And then of course, there's the fact that a huge percentage of gamers simply went along with whatever crap was peddled to them by WOTC. I've seen the type so many times and have argued them to death on numerous forums, it's ridiculous.

First, you have the people who have to keep up with whatever latest shiny object is thrown in front of them, like rabid monkeys. They're never satisfied. They bought 3E and made house rules for it, only to "upgrade" to 3.5E and house rule that to death, only to "upgrade" to 4E and house rule that, only to...etc, etc, etc. It's like a mental illness, a compulsive buying disorder. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 1E and 2E weren't broken, so no need to fix it. You can sell a new edition to these people easier than you can sell crack to a crack whore, and they're even willing to pay more. It's sad and pathetic to watch. Once they get tired of their 3E stuff and 3.5E comes out, they try selling their 3E stuff to recoup some money so that they can shell it out all over again for a 3.5E collection. And again for the 4E collection. And so on and so forth. Now you know where all that lightly used store stock comes from.

Second, you have the idiots who think they're "saving the hobby" by supporting this crap and spending shitloads of money on it. I see this type often posting online about how sad they are after the fact for having shelled out so much money for yet another "reboot". Of course, that doesn't stop them from doing it all over again, next edition! Oh, they want to "save the industry" for the next generation, or "save the hobby" for nostalgic reasons. I have a particularly deep disgust for this type, because they're insane. I liken them to the "environmentalists" who ride bicycles everywhere (while disobeying every damned traffic law known to man) because they're going to "save the planet" from fossil fuels. I wish it were legal to just run them over.

Third, you have the OCD collectors who believe that 3E and beyond actually has anything to do with real AD&D and actually has some collectible value. So they buy it all up again and again and again, edition by edition, and keep it stored safely and unused until they 1) run out of room, 2) run out of money, or 3) get slapped with an option by the wife - get rid of the clutter or sign the divorce papers. Now you know where all that virginal, unused stock comes from.

It's the same thing as comic books. The older, quality stuff is truly valuable because it was meaningful, enjoyable, high quality, and was not overprinted. Certain issues of the rarest comics have only 5-10 known copies in existence. The modern stuff (90's on) was all gimmicks, reboots, garbage quality, overprinted crap. Which is why it's in the quarter bin, or 5 for a dollar bin. You can buy 50 long boxes full of that crap for less than a single issue of a decent vintage comic from the old days.

Ah, humbug!

[JadedDM]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 1E and 2E weren't broken, so no need to fix it.

You're such a hypocrite. You've house ruled both of those editions yourself. So apparently they were broken and required fixing.

I wish it were legal to just run them over.

People who ride bikes...deserve to be murdered? What the hell is even wrong with you?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I see I've triggered someone tonight.

You're such a hypocrite. You've house ruled both of those editions yourself. So apparently they were broken and required fixing.

No hypocrisy at all in my post. I use very, very few house rules. Of those few house rules, it's about 99% either ignoring a rule (like demi-human level limits) or making up a rule where none exist, or clarifying a vague and ambiguous rule. All my changes for the combined 1E/2E systems probably would fit on a large double-sided note card or a sheet of paper, double spaced. My 1E/2E hybrid has lasted in use without need for an "upgrade" for how long now? About 30 years? 3E and beyond were not merely errata fixes and clarifications. Each new edition changed the entire system, changed the entire genre of the game. Each was a whole make-over. Hell, 3.5E required not one but TWO whole books for the DMG and TWO more for the PHB!

People who ride bikes...deserve to be murdered? What the hell is even wrong with you?

It's called sarcasm and hyperbole. You really do need to work on a sense of humor, it's very helpful in life. And my sarcasm was not directed towards "people who ride bikes". It was specifically directed towards people who ride bikes because they think they're saving the planet while also not obeying traffic laws. Pay attention.

And I suppose you believe George Carlin should have been locked up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlkxrNlp10

[Those of you with an actual sense of humor will laugh your asses off at that video!]

Oh, what the hell is even wrong with George Carlin!?!?

[JadedDM]

I see I've triggered someone tonight.

No, I don't have PTSD.

No hypocrisy at all in my post. I use very, very few house rules.

The number of rules are irrelevant. You said 1E/2E does not require fixing, but you clearly do think so if you changed anything at all.

3E and beyond were not merely errata fixes and clarifications. Each new edition changed the entire system, changed the entire genre of the game. Each was a whole make-over.

Err, yeah, that was the whole point. Have you been laboring under the mistaken idea all these decades that 3E was meant to be some kind of minor errata clarification? Of course the rules were completely different. It was a whole new edition.

You really do need to work on a sense of humor, it's very helpful in life.

Ah, you're one of those people who thinks being an ass makes you funny. Usually it's the young who think that way; I would have thought you'd have grown out of that by now.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Sigh. As usual, gotta clarify things for those who don't have a clue.

No, I don't have PTSD.

Great, now you go and disparage all our veterans who have PTSD with that statement, because you're triggered like a snowflake. It's not even a close thing. You're one of the most delicate, oversensitive people I've come across online. A lack of a sense of humor only exacerbates that sensitivity.

The number of rules are irrelevant. You said 1E/2E does not require fixing, but you clearly do think so if you changed anything at all.

I'm not sure even I can simplify this enough for you to understand what I originally wrote, because you love to plug your ears and say "nah, nah, I can't hear you!". 1E and 2E are not broken. Whether you tweak a few rules or not, it's not broken. It's safe to say that probably everyone who's ever played any version of the game has tweaked it and made their own house rules. People even do that with board games like Monopoly, for Christ's sake! What I pointed out (if you bothered to even try understanding what I actually wrote instead of simply anticipating your trigger point while reading my post) was that people have that compulsive need to "upgrade" constantly. Look, I get it...if you like 3E better than 2E, then "upgrade". But these people I'm talking about will buy an entire edition, tweak the shit out of it, and then when a new edition comes out, adopt the new rules. Why bother with all that work tweaking, re-writing and house-ruling when you're going to simply start from scratch with a new edition in a year or two? There's no satisfying those people. Never happy. Me? I've played my 1E/2E hybrid for 30 years or more without the need to "upgrade".

Err, yeah, that was the whole point. Have you been laboring under the mistaken idea all these decades that 3E was meant to be some kind of minor errata clarification? Of course the rules were completely different. It was a whole new edition.

As usual, you confused yourself. I may have to make a drawing of a flow chart, because you revel in confusing yourself and it's difficult to disentangle your non-sensible replies. Here, let's parse this out chronologically:

I wrote:

First, you have the people who have to keep up with whatever latest shiny object is thrown in front of them, like rabid monkeys. They're never satisfied. They bought 3E and made house rules for it, only to "upgrade" to 3.5E and house rule that to death, only to "upgrade" to 4E and house rule that, only to...etc, etc, etc. It's like a mental illness, a compulsive buying disorder. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 1E and 2E weren't broken, so no need to fix it.

See that bold stuff? I'm clearly talking about people who constantly switch over to the latest "release" (3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, etc) and how it makes no sense because they never settle on anything. Why keep "upgrading" when you feel the compulsion to constantly tamper with each "upgrade"? To which you replied:

You're such a hypocrite. You've house ruled both of those editions yourself. So apparently they were broken and required fixing.

To which I replied:

No hypocrisy at all in my post. I use very, very few house rules. Of those few house rules, it's about 99% either ignoring a rule (like demi-human level limits) or making up a rule where none exist, or clarifying a vague and ambiguous rule. All my changes for the combined 1E/2E systems probably would fit on a large double-sided note card or a sheet of paper, double spaced. My 1E/2E hybrid has lasted in use without need for an "upgrade" for how long now? About 30 years? 3E and beyond were not merely errata fixes and clarifications. Each new edition changed the entire system, changed the entire genre of the game. Each was a whole make-over. Hell, 3.5E required not one but TWO whole books for the DMG and TWO more for the PHB!

Clearly, you were comparing my tiny amount of tweaking to a system that incorporated the first two editions and which has lasted without change for 30+ years to adopting (and then tinkering with) entirely new rule sets every few years. You apparently don't see the difference. For me to be hypocritical, I would have to be doing what I'm looking down on others for doing, which is constantly creating house rules and then constantly upgrading to a new rule set every couple of years. I'm not doing that, hence no hypocrisy. You really need to start thinking before you post. I tired of having to dumb things down to clarify other's inability to read.

And you just admitted my point, which was that people abandon the entire rule-set for a new one each time a new edition comes out.

Ah, you're one of those people who thinks being an ass makes you funny. Usually it's the young who think that way; I would have thought you'd have grown out of that by now.

Not interested in your virtue signaling or condescending haughtiness. If you can't detect sarcasm and hyperbole maybe you should find a new line of work.

[Billy_Buttcheese]

OK, fellas, everyone chill. We're getting off-track here. Hal, I knew when I posted this pretty much what your response would be and for the most part I agree with you. OTOH, my original premise for the discussion was why does the original stuff simply seem to always bring more, in spite of condition and/or price.

I mean, it makes sense. The older a book is, the fewer intact copies likely exist, so the harder it is to acquire, so the higher price they are.

I'm aware that something is as valuable to someone as whatever they're willing to spend on it. Obviously for items that haven't been in print for many years, prices will, or usually will, be higher. I guess what I'm really talking about is the plethora of 3.x-5 Edition & Pathfinder stuff I have to wade through to find what I'm looking for. For editions that are supposed to be "the shit", and what everyone is playing these days, there sure does seem to be a shit-ton of it for sale over and over, and most for coppers on the sheckle compared to what it sold for new as recently as this year. Someone is getting killed on this stuff. Meanwhile, a battered 35 year old copy of The Temple of Elemental Evil that didn't even include the map booklet sold for the better part of $100. I'm willing to bet that 40 years from now, NONE of this newer stuff will sell for even a tiny fraction of its worth today, relative to what the original 1st & 2nd Edition stuff is selling for today, even to collectors. Face it, even those folks playing the newer rule editions know that the earliest stuff was/is the best and that's why it remains in such high demand, even if they're converting most of it to play with the newer game iterations. I guess I just answered my own question...

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

It's mostly the simple Law of Supply and Demand.

Most of the older stuff is getting harder and harder to find, and collectors want it. As collectors hoard their winnings, there are fewer and fewer copies available, hence the supply does not meet the demand and price goes up. As players of the original material get older, they tend to have more disposable income, so they have more money to spend on collecting.

And remember, we're talking about stuff that was innovative and original (OD&D, 1E, etc), not a 3rd, 4th, or 5th remake/edition. So of course, demand will be higher. For every single Temple of Elemental Evil out there on the market, there's probably several thousand copies of any given Pathfinder or 3E or 3.5E, etc. product.

I've known so many comic book collectors who fell for the stupid stunts of the 90s (foil covers, #0 issues, #1,000,000 issues, variant covers, hologram covers, etc) and bought many multiple copies of each issue. I told them back then that these pieces of crap were being overproduced and would never become rare or worth anything. Sure enough, all of them now have a dozen long boxes or more of that crap, marked down in price to a tiny fraction of its original cover price from 25 years ago...and they still can't sell the crap!

So yeah, simple supply and demand.

What drives me to the point of outright meltdown is when Half Priced Books puts their stupid stickers on the old AD&D material and says "Out of Print" and then charges 3 times what I can find it for online. I have no idea where these idiots get their prices, but I tell them "No shit Sherlock...it's been out of print for more than 2 decades. That doesn't mean it's worth anything. If you think any one is going to pay $75 for a Fair-to-Good condition copy of Tome of Magic, you're insane." For some inexplicable reason, they label certain things "out of print" and slap outrageous price tags on it, when tons of other out of print material (oh, maybe half the damned store!) is priced dirt cheap, much of it even being in the dollar section in great shape.

[Billy_Buttcheese]

It's mostly the simple Law of Supply and Demand.

What drives me to the point of outright meltdown is when Half Priced Books puts their stupid stickers on the old AD&D material and says "Out of Print" and then charges 3 times what I can find it for online. I have no idea where these idiots get their prices, but I tell them "No shit Sherlock...it's been out of print for more than 2 decades. That doesn't mean it's worth anything. If you think any one is going to pay $75 for a Fair-to-Good condition copy of Tome of Magic, you're insane." For some inexplicable reason, they label certain things "out of print" and slap outrageous price tags on it, when tons of other out of print material (oh, maybe half the damned store!) is priced dirt cheap, much of it even being in the dollar section in great shape.

This is a marketing technique, plain and simple. It's like when a company puts the word "professional" on an item. Wander through your local Lowe's or Home Depot and see how many products have this magic word on it. Like, even though it's designed for professionals, you can still use it. You tell someone it's OOP, a switch goes off in their brainpan telling them they better pony up the cash or they'll somehow miss out and regret it.

I don't have a Half-Priced books near me so I can't speak to that. What I do see on ebay are plenty of folks that very obviously aren't either collectors or players of the game selling, or attempting to sell items they picked up at a garage or estate sale, thinking they found a gold mine. They do zero or maybe a few minutes of research before slapping some outrageous price on their treasures. I recall a post over on DF (in the Collectors subforum, I think) from a few years ago where folks would post the latest outrageous ebay listing they had discovered. I can recall seeing a ragged, incomplete copy of an OD&D white box that I wouldn't let my dog chew on listed for over $1000. Obviously it didn't sell but it was funny and illustrates my point perfectly. I wish there was a way to weed these idiots out.

But, you're right. Supply & demand. The supply is limited but the demand is high.