Spell research, bards/rangers/paladins?

[garhkal]

So, BTB spell research is called out in the DMG as beign specific to Priests (clerics/druids) and mages (magic users/illusionists)..

So do YOU SEE it then that it means rangers, paladins and even bards (who all get spell casting, but no where near the level of casting) can't do research?

If say you say a ranger can't do his own spell research, could he commission an NPC mage to do it for him? Could a Mage pc do that?

[Billy_Buttcheese]

So, BTB spell research is called out in the DMG as beign specific to Priests (clerics/druids) and mages (magic users/illusionists)..

So do YOU SEE it then that it means rangers, paladins and even bards (who all get spell casting, but no where near the level of casting) can't do research?

If say you say a ranger can't do his own spell research, could he commission an NPC mage to do it for him?

I seem to recall a similar discussion about this somewhere else before, DF, maybe? Anyway, I am assuming you are referring specifically to researching new spells? If so, I would say probably not. Remember it's not a specialty for them, it's kind of like a minor 'hobby' for lack of a better word, as opposed to being a specialty like the mage/cleric. As for the commission of it from an NPC I would likely allow it with a few caveats; I would need to know exactly what the spell would entail and if it was within the parameters of the appropriate skill level for the non-mage/cleric character to be able to cast since their casting abilities are so limited in scope (2nd-3rd level?). I would also need to know what they plan on using it for to ascertain it was within the boundaries of their tenets, alignment, religion, faith, etc. I would also likely make it very expensive. Taking time away from an NPCs own personal pursuits to research something for someone else is certainly cause to charge the PC a lot of money. Finally, I would also likely make the PC sign some form of legal document stipulating ownership (naming rights, disclaimers, etc.) to the NPC doing the research. I might allow actual credit being shared depending on the level of success since the idea for the spell originally came from the PC.

Could a Mage pc do that?

If you are referring to having another 'qualified' PC perform the research, I would probably allow it but it would definitely take the PC time away from adventuring and the research rate charges would have to be conducted in front of me in good faith to avoid hard feelings if things don't work out as intended. But the time away from adventuring would be the biggest factor for me.

[garhkal]

I seem to recall a similar discussion about this somewhere else before, DF, maybe?

We are currently discussing it ON DF right now... BUT prior to that, i am not sure..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

So, BTB spell research is called out in the DMG as beign specific to Priests (clerics/druids) and mages (magic users/illusionists)..

So do YOU SEE it then that it means rangers, paladins and even bards (who all get spell casting, but no where near the level of casting) can't do research?

This is such an empty area in the rules (both 1E and 2E). There's really nothing there for us to work with, and what little we get doesn't help. For example, in 1E, rangers get druidic and wizard spell ability, but cannot cast these spells from scrolls and yet thieves, who have no magical ability can (clerical and wizard spells).

The way I see it, looking at the 1E ranger, is that the ranger receives his druidic spells via his connection to nature - just like druids do. The ranger prays/meditates with nature and gains his spells. Over time, he also picks up bits of arcane lore and information and comes to learn wizard spells. The paladin prays for his spells just like clerics do.

I'd argue that rangers and paladins cannot research spells because that's not how they function. In the case of the ranger, his druidic spell ability is more like a special ability (granted by nature) than it is actual spell casting. A subtle difference, but different enough. Almost like the abilities of elves in LOTR. He still has to pray in nature to receive his spells but he cannot research new ones. Since he picks up bits of arcane lore here and there, he can't research wizard spells. He only learns those he happens to come across. Remember, he has no facilities or equipment for research.

Now with bards, I can see then doing spell research because that's their thing - researching all sorts of ancient lore and history. So perhaps they hear a rumor of a particular spell. They decide to research how that spell might be formulated. Hence, spell research.

If say you say a ranger can't do his own spell research, could he commission an NPC mage to do it for him? Could a Mage pc do that?

I'd say no. For no reason other than I like the idea of rangers gaining spells via encounters with wizards and ancient lore in their travels. But rules-wise, I don't see why a wizard couldn't research a spell for a ranger. Then again, I'm not fond of rangers getting to custom-make new spells whether through their own research or the research of wizards. It's one of the few perks of being a wizard - creating new spells.

[Lyrwik]

I'm not sure that I've ever actually had a character research a new spell in-game. However, I've always thought that if it were to happen, it should be something which forms the basis for an adventure, rather than simply relying on finding a nice library and reading for a while. For example, if a wizard wanted to create a new spell, they may need to first consult a library where they research for a while, discover some potential components which will be useful in the spell, then go adventuring to acquire those components (which may not be typical spell components and aren't otherwise readily available), then when they've done that, they then go into experimentation phase (perhaps with potentially dangerous results).

I've also always thought it would be odd for a priest to 'research' a spell in a similar way to a wizard. They aren't manipulating magical essence (or wherever you see magic as coming from), they are being granted their power from their god. As such, I always thought it would be more a case of needing to do something to gain the favour of their god to get them to go out of their way to grant a slightly different power. This could come in the form of some sort of pilgrimage or holy quest.

How do you all approach it?

With regards to the other spellcasting classes, I'd be inclined to leave it open for them to create new spells, but the process would have to be something fitting with their class and similar to the above examples, it would need to involve a spell and class-appropriate quest.

As a slight aside, how do you all deal with wizards gaining spells? Do you allow them to gain one automatically when the level up, or do you require that they study for every spell? I've always preferred that they have to study/find a teacher, as to me a wizard is all about researching to gain knowledge. However, I can see the rationale for allowing one new spell automatically when levelling up.

[garhkal]

For clerics, they usually just research spells not on their gods list that other gods may have granted for their clerics.. OR spells that were ONCE known but fell out of 'favor' centuries past, cause they say found words in a book showing that "the god XYZ used to have ABC spell)..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I got pretty much by the book. Spell research is boring and not worth being part of the adventure. It takes place behind the scenes, in down time between adventures. I'm not a big fan of writing an adventure for the sole purpose of the wizard obtaining a rare material component, but they may have to look hard and pay well to get the materials (from an alchemist, another wizard, etc). For priests, they have to consult old texts and ancient writings of the religion and study religious texts. If they're creating a new spell, they would have to consult with the elders of the church for approval, or find (as Garhkal suggested) some forgotten spell that the clerics of that god once used to cast, but for whatever reason no longer do. Their "research" is more in line with devising the proper wording for a prayer to utter and what materials (if any) the cleric's god would accept as offering for the spell.