Raising Undead

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Raising Undead

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

With Halloween Season here :twisted: , I decided to post something I wrote up years ago that fuses two of my favorite topics...undead and resurrection!

First I'll point out some BTB stuff, then go over how I handle it.

In 1E, the raise dead spell description says:

"Note that newly made undead, excluding skeletons, which fall within the days of being dead limit are affected by raise dead spells cast upon them. The effect of the spell is to cause them to become resurrected dead, providing the constitution permits survival; otherwise, they are simply dead."

So what this is saying is that if you cast raise dead on a character who's become undead within 1 day per level of the priest casting the spell, it will either restore that person to life, or simply turn him into a dead person, i.e. it reverses the undead status, but the person remains dead. If his constitution allows for it - I take that to mean roll a resurrection survival roll. If he makes it, he's raised into a state of living. If he fails it, he's dead, but no longer undead. If he's used up his CON limits on resurrections, he simply remains dead (but not undead).

The resurrection spell references back to the raise dead spell as far as what can be done, so I take it to mean it works the same way.

But there's a problem.

First, you can't raise someone, nor can you resurrect someone, without at least part of the body. Incorporeal undead like ghosts, spectres, wraiths, etc. have no body parts, hence you shouldn't be able to raise or resurrect them.

Second, the monsters descriptions in MMI and MMII give contradictory info.

For ghosts, it says only:

"Any human - including dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings - killed by a ghost is forever dead."

Doesn't say anything about using raise dead or resurrection against the ghost itself, but it does indicate that if a ghost kills you, you're dead forever, period. No raise dead or resurrection for you! But like I said, non-corporeal undead have no body to raise.

For spectres, it says:

"A raise dead spell will destroy a spectre unless it makes its saving throw vs. magic."

Doesn't say anything about raising it, just destroying it. I interpret this as saying that if it makes its saving throw, it's unaffected. If it fails its saving throw, it's destroyed. Resurrection would work the same way.

Wraiths have no stipulation at all listed as to whether or how the spell might affect them.

For wights, it simply says:

"A raise dead spell will destroy a wight."

No save, no nothing, it just destroys it.

So the spell description says that you can raise undead back to a living or dead (as opposed to undead) state depending on whether or not the creature or person is within the day/level limit of the spell-caster. It excludes skeletons but does not specifically exclude other undead, including incorporeal undead.

That means there's conflicting info on raising wights and incorporeal undead.

So how would I rule?

When it comes to incorporeal undead (ghosts, wraiths, spectres, etc.), casting raise dead or resurrection on them forces a saving throw. If the undead makes its save, it is unaffected in any way. If it fails its save, the spirit is released from its undead state and hence destroyed.

When it comes to corporeal undead, it's different. If the corporeal undead makes its save, it's just like the spell description says. If it's within the time limit, it becomes a living, breathing person again. If it's outside the time limit, it becomes a dead person and is no longer undead.

I'd probably allow an attempt to resurrect a person who died, became undead, and was turned back into a dead human(oid) via a raise dead spell, then had resurrection cast on him, with all the usual limits, i.e. time limit, CON limit, resurrection survival roll, etc.

I would not allow such a person who was turned from undead into dead via the use of a raise dead spell to be raised into a state of living via a second raise dead spell.

In other words, you can try to turn the corporeal undead person into a living person via raise dead if he's within the time limit. Fine. If he's not, then he simply becomes a dead person, but I won't allow a second raise dead in that case to bring him back to life. You have to find a resurrection spell.

Also, I allow a resurrection spell to raise even skeletons contrary to what's written under the raise dead spell, simply because the resurrection spell specifically says it can raise the bones of a person.

2E makes it even more complicated!
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garhkal
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Re: Raising Undead

Post by garhkal »

Interesting convo.. For me i default to the monster's write up overriding the spell..

So Raise dead won't bring back to life someone turned into undead, but it can kill them ultimately. THEN You just need a way to resurrect them after..
lanir
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Re: Raising Undead

Post by lanir »

Dragon 198 had a some new undead that could be revived. Like the example in the link below.

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/vartha.php

It's a pretty niche area so how you handle it is probably more about the style of the campaign world you want than anything else. So you would probably vary it based on the genre you're aiming for.
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Cole
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Re: Raising Undead

Post by Cole »

[quote="Halaster-Blackcloak"][/quote]

Yes, I think you're RPing that bang on Hal ;)

I don't see any problems with how you're interpreting the rules. I would do things much the same, IF not exactly that same. :up:

I also agree with Gar "Interesting convo.. For me i default to the monster's write up overriding the spell.."

The spell should always be the BASE of the rules, the monster's right up are ALWAYS the exceptions.
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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Re: Raising Undead

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

I'll throw my hat in with both of you - the spell is the core rule, the monsters write-up is the exception. That's always seemed to make the most sense.
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