Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

The issue of followers/henchmen/hirelings has always been confusing to a large degree. So, here's an analysis and some questions for discussion/debate:

1st Edition

The issue of followers/henchmen/hirelings is especially confusing in 1E because in some places followers and henchmen are referred to as being identical, whereas in other entries they are distinctly different. Looking at 1E, here's what each class gets:

Fighters gain "a body of men-at-arms". No details given that I've found as yet. It appears that "men-at-arms" in 1E is the equivalent of "followers" in 2E, based on the description of both fighters and paladins.

Rangers gain followers at 10th level. The ranger gets 2d12 followers in 1E (as opposed to 2d6 in 2E). I noticed that they are called both followers and henchmen, interchangeably: "...each ranger attracts a body of 2-24 followers. Note that these henchmen, once lost, can never be replaced...". No mention of animal followers at all, also different from 2E. No details on levels either.

Paladins don't attract followers at all (which I find unusual). His henchmen can only be LG alignment.

Wizards and illusionists apparently do not attract followers.The 1E PHB is silent on the matter.

Clerics gain tons of followers. At 8th level, they gain 20-200 followers, but with no mention of level. Unlike 2E, the 1E PHB mentions that: "in addition [to the 20-200 followers] there will be followers who are men-at-arms (q.v.) and your referee will relay the types and numbers at the appropriate time." I cannot find any reference to "men-at-arms", nor any other 1E source showing what these may be. Of course, given the beloved mess of 1E, it may just have escaped my notice at the moment.

Druids gain 3 followers (druids only) at 12th level, the level of the followers being dependent on the xp of the druid (there are only 9 12th-level druids in a given area, and the one with the most xp gets 3 9th-level druid followers while the one with the lowest xp gets 3 1st-level druids). The Great Druids gets 9 11th-level follower druids.

Thieves attract 4d6 followers - all thieves, though nothing is written pertaining to levels.

Assassins do not gain followers until they hit 14th level. As Guildmaster (14th level), they attain 7d4 (7-28) 1st level assassins.

Monks are treated strangely. At 6th level they attain 2 "henchmen". These can be fighters (but not rangers or paladins), thieves, or assassins. I suspect Gygax had one of his infamous bouts with insanity while writing this up (the other major one being demihuman level limits :roll: ), because it makes no sense. Why not only monk followers? I can even see fighters, but thieves and assassins? Hardly lawful types. Monks gain an additional henchman each level above 6th, up to the limit defined by their Charisma scores. Now here is where it gets crazy...with monks, henchmen and followers are apparently different types of NPCs (as opposed to being the same as noted in the ranger entry). With monks, they gain (at 8th level) 2-5 1st-level monk followers (as long as they have a monastery). The monk gains an additional 1-2 monks each time he gains a level. However, follower monks leave their monk master when the followers attain 7th level.

Bards are allowed only druids, fighters or thieves who are human, elven, or half-elven only as followers. Bards have a total of 1 follower at 5th level, 2 at 8th level, 3 at 11th, 4 at 14th, 5 at 17th, 6 at 20th, and "any number" at 23rd level, subject to his Charisma limit.

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2nd Edition

In 2E, the terms "follower" and "henchman" are better defined as separate entities, but there's still some confusion to it. More detail is given pertaining to types and levels of followers. There are also some interesting changes made.

Fighters gain followers at 9th level. They gain a single 5th,6th, or 7th level leader, a group of anywhere from 10-40 troops, and an elite bodyguard unit of 10-30 1st or 2nd level followers. So anywhere from 21 - 71 followers. The fighter gains an average of 42 followers. This is far more precisely spelled out than it is in 1E.

Rangers gain followers at 10th level. The ranger gets 2d6 followers, as opposed to 2d12 in 1E. However, in 2E has about a 60% chance on the chart to gain animal followers as opposed to humans or demihumans. For the human or demihuman followers listed (rangers, fighters, druids, etc.) there is no level given for any of them. The ranger gains an average of 7 followers.

Paladins don't attract followers at all (which I still find unusual). His henchmen can only be LG alignment.

Wizards apparently do not attract followers. The 2E PHB is silent on the matter, as it is in 1E.

Priests/Clerics gain tons of followers! At 8th level, they gain 20-200 followers, all 0th level fighters. The cleric gains an average of 110 followers. Again, this is spelled out more precisely than it is in 1E, but there is no mention of the "additional men-at-arms" given in 1E.

Druids gain 3 followers (druids only) at 12th level, and the level of the followers depends on how experienced the druid is compared to the other 12th level druids in the area. Arch-druids (13th level) likewise gain 3 druids of 10th level. Great druids (14th level) gain 3 druids of 11th level. The Grand Druid (15th level) gains 3 arch-druids (13th level) and 6 more of 7th - 11th level. It's not clear whether the gains are cumulative, i.e. when a 12th level druid attains 13th level, does he keep his original 3 druids he gained when reaching 12th level in addition to the 3 10th-level druids he gains for hitting 13th level? And so on and so forth up the chain? Druids gain an average of 3 followers.

Thieves attract 4d6 followers at 10th level - all thieves, thief/fighters, thief/fighter/mages, etc. The followers range from 1st to 8th level (average of 3rd level, considering the chart stats). The thief gains an average of 14 followers.

Bards :roll: gain 10d6 0th level fighters at 9th level. They get an average of 35 followers.
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In 2E, henchmen are different than followers.

Followers serve their master out of respect and due to the master's reputation. They still need care, upkeep, payment, etc. Followers are determined in the class descriptions and cannot be replaced. Follower numbers have no relation to the PC's Charisma score.

Henchmen are higher level followers who were either hired to serve the PCs or who gained xp and rose in levels from follower status. Henchmen are more like NPC/PCs for lack of a better description. I've never liked the confusion between followers and henchmen - and it is somewhat confusing. The number of henchmen a single PC can have in an entire lifetime is dictated by his Charisma score and averages from 9 to 15 henchmen (based on CHA 9 to CHA 18).

However, in 1E, it says (DMG, pg. 34) that all hirelings begin at 1st level, unless the PC is at 7th level. At that point, there's a 10% chance hirelings of 2nd level can be found. If the PC is above 11th level, there is a 25% chance of finding a hireling of 3rd level. So in 1E at least, it's unlikely that henchmen or followers will ever attain the status of fellow PCs (i.e. replacing a dead PC) as we discussed in the other thread.

Hirelings can be any sort and any level, from sages to blacksmiths to clerics. Usually they're just 0th level NPCs like blacksmiths, etc. No hireling will ever "step in" for a lost PC. They are not adventurers.

Hirelings do not go on adventures with PCs. Followers (according to the 2E PHB) do not go on adventures with PCs (which I find odd because to me followers would be the closest relationship to the PCs). Henchmen go on adventures with PCs and gain xp and treasure.
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I've always felt that followers should be the closest and most loyal acquaintances to the PCs. These are people (and animals) who were attracted to the PC entirely due to the PC's reputation, not merely because they need a job. They want to be part of the PC's life, part of the PC's agenda and goals. They're fanatically loyal and should be the closest thing to the individual PC - closer than even other PCs. As far as henchmen, I don't see how these become a higher type of acquaintance to the PCs than followers because henchmen are hired hands initially (although it does say they can come from the ranks of followers, though usually they're simply hired).

I also think that there should be a bit more fairness to how many followers each class gets. I mean, really...the wizard and paladin get none, while the fighter gets (in 2E) up to 71 followers and the priest up to 200! 8O Some gain a fixed number (such as druids) while others get a variable number (such as thieves). Rangers gain mainly animal followers, while druids gain no animal followers. It's all pretty chaotic. I don't think it should be perfectly equal, but I think the issue of followers/henchmen/hirelings could use a bit of re-working and that it's an interesting topic.

Also, touching on what TigerStripedDog and Garhkal were debating on the other thread - in 1E at least, it appears that henchmen do tend to be of the same class as their PC master. In the 1E DMG, pg. 35, it has a chart that, if I understand it correctly, implies that henchmen are of the same class as the PC. There is a small chance of a sub-class (i.e. a cleric has a 20% chance of finding a henchman, and on a roll of 1d6 gains a druid. Likewise, a fighter has a 44% chance and on a roll of 1 he gets a ranger, on a roll of 2 a paladin).
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

For me, a henchmen is always a classed leveled npc that you can hire, or find/make into someone loyal to you.
Hirelings are just paid help and rarely are levelled.
Followers are those who come to you from you fame. However Under the fighter's followers it does in parts say they stay as long as they are paid.. Which makes me wonder are they just slightly higher loyalty hirelings??
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

It's confusing. I think the whole system of hirelings/henchmen/followers wasn't fully developed in 1E and then in 2E they tried to flesh it out, but still the concept wasn't solid.

Hirelings in both editions seem clear enough - they're just people the PCs hire. A blacksmith to make arrowheads, a sage to do research, etc. No loyalty involved outside of doing a good job to get paid. They don't go on adventures, etc.

But to me followers have always implied a closer relationship than henchmen. For example, in the 1E PHB (pg. 20), the cleric's followers are described this way:

"These followers are fanatically loyal and serve without pay so long as the cleric does not change deities and/or alignment."

Can't get much more loyal than that! 8O

On the other hand, under the fighter class description (1E PHB, pg. 22), it says this about the fighter's followers (though they're not referred to as followers):

"These men will serve as mercenaries so long as the fighter maintains his or her freehold and pays the men-at-arms..."

So there they are merely hired mercenaries, loyal only to the money, not the fighter. Which sorta contradicts the whole idea of being attracted by the fighter's reputation I suppose. This description differs from other uses of the words "henchmen" and "followers" found elsewhere.

The 1E ranger description describes followers as henchmen:

"Also at 10th level, each ranger attracts a body of 2-24 followers. Note that these henchmen once lost, can never be replaced, although mercenaries can be hired, of course."

So here "followers" are synonymous with "henchmen". It also says:

"Although rangers do not attract a body of mercenaries to serve them..."

So apparently the fighter attracts an army of mercenaries who are faithful to money, while the ranger attracts henchmen or followers who cannot be replaced but who are not defined in terms of loyalty, while the cleric attracts fanatic followers who don't even ask for pay. :|

Thieves and assassins attract guild members, about whom loyalty is not mentioned. However, given their nature and alignment, we can expect them to plot their PC master's demise if it serves them. So much for loyalty. :roll:

In 2E, under the fighter class description, it specifically says this about the fighter's followers:

"They are loyal as long as they are well treated, successful, and well paid."

It goes on to describe the leader and elite members of the fighter's followers as follows:

"Although these soldiers are still mercenaries, they have greater loyalty to their Lord than do common soldiers. In return they expect better treatment and more pay than the common soldier receives."

Well ok, but that loyalty is still dependent upon good pay and special treatment.

In 2E, the ranger's followers seem a bit more loyal overall:

"While the followers are automatically loyal and friendly towards the ranger, their future behavior depends on the ranger's treatment of them."

That line seems to be directed more towards the animal followers, in context.

Clerics' followers are similarly described as "fanatically loyal".

What always puzzled me is why wizards attract no apprentices or followers, given their fame and power. And even more so with paladins - they are paragons of virtue and goodness and might in the cause of right. Why would they not inspire others to follow them, while a mere fighter inspires others?

It would seem to me that we would be better served having only two categories of assistant NPCs - hirelings and followers. Or hirelings and henchmen. The confusion and contradiction between definitions and descriptions of henchmen and followers makes me think the terms are redundant. There needs to be a difference between the terms, and I don't see one. Henchmen in 1E start at 1st level, and can become any level. Followers can likewise have levels as the fighter description shows, and therefore can gain levels. I can see the cleric's and the druid's followers being more fanatically loyal due to their religious basis.

But I think there's an argument for revamping the system of followers/henchmen to better define it.
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

So in essence a fighter's gimped, cause he STILL has to pay them the proper "men at arms" wage, or loses them. AND has to pony up for a keep/castle to even get them in the first place, whre joe schmoe mage could just buy them at any time..
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

Seems to me everyone is screwed except the cleric (and I guess the druid).

Clerics get the most followers (up to 200 max, with 110 as an average number), they're "fanatically loyal", and don't even need payment! The cleric need only stick to his religion/alignment. I'd argue that druid followers would be be equally faithful, seeing as how it's a religious thing and a strict hierarchy. Of course, druids get the least number of followers, gaining only three. And 3 is a hell of a lot less than 110, although admittedly the druid followers have higher levels as opposed to 110 0th level clerics. Not sure it balances.

Fighters must pay his mercenaries, and pay well, and then pay his elite guard even better. It costs a lot to keep his "followers" loyal. He gains the most, next to the cleric, but it damned near bankrupts him! While the cleric can have 200 fanatically loyal followers for free. The fighter can have as many as 71, but they milk him for every copper piece they can get, otherwise they turn on him. I guess that's why they're called "mercenaries"! :lol:

With thieves and assassins, your "followers" are out to kill you (if they're played properly).

Rangers (in 2E) get mainly animals as followers - and I would argue that 3 druids, or 200 clerics, or 30 archers and a 7th level fighter/captain far outweigh a chipmunk, a raven and a bear. Plus, unless he has magic enabling him to communicate with the animal followers, he can't even direct them or give them orders! They're more like pets or friends than followers or henchmen.

Wizards don't get followers at all, so for them it's the same as the fighter - he'd have to hire on mercenaries and pay well.

The poor paladin doesn't gain followers and can't even afford to pay for mercenaries!

The monk gains leveled followers (monks starting at 1st level) but they all leave him once they reach 7th level. Plus he has to maintain a monastery similar to how a fighter has to maintain a keep.

Bards are actually pretty lucky with followers, getting a mix of fighters, druids and thieves. Not sure how much or how well he needs to pay them, but he gets all leveled characters and adds more as he gains levels.
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

I get that henchmen and followers are their own individual beings, and that they wouldn't serve a stingy, greedy, uncaring, abusive "master" no matter how famous the fighter was or how enamored they are (were) of him. In-game, these followers are still humans and elves and what not, with feelings, dreams, goals, families, desire for life and comfort, etc. So they should not necessarily be fanatically loyal, with the possible exception of the religious oriented followers, since they are in essence in the service of their god/church despite answering to a PC cleric or druid.

But on the other hand, what's the point of having followers if you have to go broke affording them?

Lets say the fighter gets his 71 henchmen. According to the 1E DMG, it costs at least 100 gp to generate a 25% interest in a henchman serving the fighter. Each additional 100 gp adds 10% to a maximum of 55% chance the henchman is interested. So that's 400 gp to generate a 55% success rate recruiting henchmen (so much for being attracted to the fighter for his renown and fame - another example of Gygax's inconsistencies in the rules). so he only has to approach and entice 135 potential henchmen to gain his 71 actual henchmen, at that percentage rate. He spends 28,400 gp to accomplish this. He has to pay for quartering, food and clothing. Add another (on average) 3 gp/month for the average monthly cost just to pay the henchmen, which comes to 213 gp/month. Assuming they need no armor or weapons, the first month he has those followers is going to cost him 28,613 gp - thousands of gp more than the price of buying a warship or even a large galley! 8O Mere payment each month afterward is equivalent to the price of purchasing a war horse! Oh, and they need a nice cut of all treasure and magic items too!

Meanwhile, the cleric laughs while his 200 fanatically loyal followers go into combat for him, raiding the enemy's temples. Or sweeping the floors in the cleric's temple. Or doing whatever it is he asks. For free! :lol:
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

This brings up another issue...

Can 0th-level NPCs gain levels? Personally, I'd far prefer having 3 5th-level druid followers (as a druid) than 200 0th-level clerics or fighters as a cleric, if those 200 cannot advance. I've always understood it that 0th-level characters do not gain levels - until the Greyhawk hardcover came out and detailed playing 0th-level PCs until they reached 1st level. Now I'm not sure how to deal with it.
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote: The poor paladin doesn't gain followers and can't even afford to pay for mercenaries! .
Paladins are allowed to retain enough wealth to pay for his underlings though.

Though back to fighters, one thing i never understood was WHY would fighter A who made a small keep/watch tower get the same # of followers (have the same types as well) as Fighter B who made a massive grand castle..
So i made up some charts for both clerics and fighters. Fighter's have three charts. Small keep, or manor house, Medium castle, or large..
For clerics, they DO have to pay the men at arms they get, but the cost is half what they normally would be asking. Also what Amount they get is based on the type.. Check a new thread (in 2e) for specifics..
Can 0th-level NPCs gain levels? Personally, I'd far prefer having 3 5th-level druid followers (as a druid) than 200 0th-level clerics or fighters as a cleric, if those 200 cannot advance. I've always understood it that 0th-level characters do not gain levels - until the Greyhawk hardcover came out and detailed playing 0th-level PCs until they reached 1st level. Now I'm not sure how to deal with it.
BTB no 0 levels cannot gain any class/level. BUT many dms i know do have house rules on how one could be pushed to a new level.
BUT you are wrong about fighter's followers being akin to henchmen. THey are not paid the same 100gp/level an actual henchman would cost.. THey just get the DMG listed cost for men at arms, with lieutenants, captains and sergeants being paid the 100gp/level.. As for the body guards. As they DO have classed levels, i am not sure what their cost is.. i've usually defaulted to 50gp/level for those guys..
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
Paladins are allowed to retain enough wealth to pay for his underlings though.
True. He's still always broke though, because he cannot retain wealth beyond what's needed to pay henchmen and tithe the church. Those henchmen eat up all his money! :lol: Hell, the henchmen retain more money than the paladin does! 8O
Though back to fighters, one thing i never understood was WHY would fighter A who made a small keep/watch tower get the same # of followers (have the same types as well) as Fighter B who made a massive grand castle..
So i made up some charts for both clerics and fighters. Fighter's have three charts. Small keep, or manor house, Medium castle, or large..
I always wondered the same thing. I gotta go check your new thread! :wink:
For clerics, they DO have to pay the men at arms they get, but the cost is half what they normally would be asking. Also what Amount they get is based on the type..
Not in 1E. Under the cleric description (PHB, pg. 20) it says:

"These followers are fanatically loyal and serve without pay so long as the cleric does not change deities and/or alignment."

In 2E all it says is that the cleric receives fanatically loyal followers, no mention of payment needed. It does say he can hire other mercenaries though, implying that the original followers are not paid. But when you have 200 fanatical followers who serve for free, why pay for more? :lol: Not sure where you read about them paying half, I can't recall that.
BTB no 0 levels cannot gain any class/level. BUT many dms i know do have house rules on how one could be pushed to a new level.
I forget where 0th level characters are first mentioned - I believe it wasn't until 2E when the term came up. And I swear I remember there being an explanation that 0th level characters are just that, 0th level, and cannot gain levels. They're ordinary NPCs. I can't recall if it was in the DMG or PHB or where. It wasn't until the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover book that (in the back pages) playing 0th level characters up to 1st level became possible (that is the earliest source I'm aware of). I guess it makes sense. A child is not born a 1st level fighter or wizard. He has to grow up, then train for his field of study, then become great. So it makes sense. 1st level characters have to originate somewhere (at 0th level).
BUT you are wrong about fighter's followers being akin to henchmen. THey are not paid the same 100gp/level an actual henchman would cost.. THey just get the DMG listed cost for men at arms, with lieutenants, captains and sergeants being paid the 100gp/level.. As for the body guards. As they DO have classed levels, i am not sure what their cost is.. i've usually defaulted to 50gp/level for those guys..
Ah, I see! Thanks for clearing that up. That actually makes more sense, now that you mention it. In that case, I guess the leveled bodyguards/leaders could probably cost as much as the henchmen, since they have levels.
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

The pay-half cost thing is part of MY re-do. I just never liked that they get fanatically loyal troops for free where a warrior doens't. Hell a warriors are not even any more loyal to ya than regular paid mercs.. Which to me is stupid.
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

Ah, ok! I thought that was a rule in the books and I couldn't recall seeing it. Yeah, the system really could use some work when it comes to followers. I gotta go over all the details in your other thread and let you know what I think. I'm dying to read it thoroughly but every time I sign in here, something comes up and I have to head out. Ugh! Crazy days!
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by TigerStripedDog »

Do you all think that the hirelings/henchmen/followers add enough to the game to be worth the headache? That is a lot of clerical work to keep up with - tracking names, stats, HP, etc. I find that if the party gains more than 1-2 followers per PC the sessions can get really bogged down. Half the time the players forget about their henchmen - and worse, sometimes I do.

Having not experienced much in terms of added value, it is something I skimp on. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how these things are managed and how you keep them FUN.

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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

Though its been a rare time i have had a PC get to the level and BUILD the keep/castle/temple to get followers, it just has been used to provide a safety haven for the group during down time. Only when we did spell jammer where followers were the crew of te ships they were on, did they seem to actually 'give a shit' it seemed about them..
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by Halaster-Blackcloak »

TigerStripedDog wrote:
Do you all think that the hirelings/henchmen/followers add enough to the game to be worth the headache? That is a lot of clerical work to keep up with - tracking names, stats, HP, etc. I find that if the party gains more than 1-2 followers per PC the sessions can get really bogged down. Half the time the players forget about their henchmen - and worse, sometimes I do.

Having not experienced much in terms of added value, it is something I skimp on. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how these things are managed and how you keep them FUN.
Yes and no. You have a good point there. It is a lot of work to keep up with. But then again, it's not as if the cleric who gains 200 followers needs them all developed and named. They just exist, as numbers in a sense. They come in handy for background storytelling at higher levels - the priest's temple or the fighter's castle is attacked by an old enemy or a new monster, and the followers are there to defend it while the PCs are away. Makes for some good campaign flavor.

I've had lots of fun with followers like that over the years. In one situation, the PCs were building a second castle and some of the new incoming followers were spies for a foreign power. Lots of secret spying devices and other nasty tricks and traps were incorporated to irritate the PCs. Just flushing out the spies was a major task! So yeah, it can be fun, used properly. And they make such good cannon fodder when Orcus invades the Prime Material Plane and there's a major was between the PCs, their followers and Orcus and his hordes of demons! :twisted:
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Re: Henchmen/Followers/Hirelings

Post by garhkal »

Yup. The very few times i have had the chance to use some sort of battlesystem rules, was during a PC's keep getting assaultd by armies of some of his foes...
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