Question about incorporating animal followers

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

This is something new for me, and a difficult one to figure out. As long as I've been playing AD&D, I've always had rangers or druids with animal followers in my games. It's almost inevitable. And for the most part, they've generally been left at home while the PCs go adventuring. The reason is that it's simply too easy for animal followers to die at higher levels of play. Sure, 1st and 2nd level characters who somehow have a badger or war dog traveling with them will do just fine, since they're fighting low level monsters.

But once the party gets to mid-high levels (10th and above, where rangers get followers), those animals are almost guaranteed to die if they go on any adventures. A dog will have 1-2 HD and single-digit hp. A wolf will have 3 HD and average hp in the low teens. A raven has a mere 1-2 hp (not HD). So how are these animal followers supposed to go on an adventure when the PCs are fighting undead, dragons, golems, beholders, drow, etc? They'll never survive. Which is why my PCs usually use them as spies, as guardians for their grove/castle/home/whatever, as messengers and as other role-playing, behind-the-scenes members of the party.

But now I have a player with a ranger who has a bunch of animal followers and wants to incorporate them into an adventure (i.e. bring them along). I'm not sure how to manage that. How will they feed a bear in a dungeon? How will they even get the bear to go along in a dungeon? Seems to me a bear or worse yet a hawk will not feel like being confined to a dungeon (and there is a major one coming up next adventure). There are tons of logistical problems. And then there is the issue of me not wanting to see their animals all killed off.

When I've been a player, I've also used them the same way. If I had a ranger who had human or elven or what-not followers, they came along (usually). But the animals stayed behind, working behind the scenes. I always got them to be part of the story, but would never think to try taking a bear or a wolf or a hawk into the dungeon.

So...any ideas?

[garhkal]

LEt the player figure out the logistics of his or her animals.. And realize if they die, and he willfully puts them in harms way, HE could get dinked by nature for doing so..
Also, why do YOU fear him losing his animal companions?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I just see it as needlessly killing off a bunch of animal followers. In real life I'm an animal lover, so that alone makes it not the most desirable outcome. But mainly it just seems like a waste to get animal followers only to not be able to use them to any great extent without a high risk of death.

[RPG Dinosaur]

H-B, I wanted to reply last Sunday, but got swept up in an extremely busy week. Don't know if you've had your game session and already took a course of action regarding the PC Ranger wanting to bring animals, but I'll go ahead and jump in even if you've already moved on.
It's pretty clear that you don't want to deal with having to DM having the Rangers animals come into the dungeon. I think you partially provided the answer in your own post and I also really like what Garhkal said about the matter. You said "How do you feed a bear in a dungeon?" and "Can you even get a bear into the dungeon?" If I were you I'd enforce that the Player Ranger have to deal with these logistical issues, and every other conceivable one as well, with no advice from you. Make sure the player knows that before the adventure begins, if you haven't already done so. This might cause the Player to reconsider right then and there. You aren't being unfair to the Player, you are executing your position as DM appropriately.
By the way, I see a bear far more likely to enter the dungeon than a hawk or raven, because they hibernate in small confined spaces. You said " Seems to me a bear or worse yet a hawk will not feel like being confined to a dungeon..." If that's how you feel, go with that feeling, start the adventure and when the party arrives at the dungeon inform the PC Ranger that the animals are balking at going in. Again, maybe this will cause the Player to reconsider taking them in. If you are playing 1E I would tell the Player that their bird just won't come in and that they have to make a percentile roll of say, 61-00 or the bear refuses to go in also. 2E is a little bit different IMO because the in the P. Handbook Rangers section dealing with followers it says "While the followers are automatically loyal and friendly toward the Ranger..." I guess that your Player could reference that statement and argue that the followers loyalty to the Ranger would make the animals push through their inhibitions about entering the dungeon. In that case I would still make the Player roll, with somewhat better chances of coaxing the animals inside. Say for 2E, a roll of 56-00 gets the bear inside and with 2E the Ranger actually has a chance (not a very good one) of getting the bird inside on a roll of 91-00. Of course, you can determine your own percentile chances as you feel appropriate.
Let's continue the example by assuming that the Player made the roll for the bear (but not the bird) and it is coming with the party. At this point Hal, you're just going to have to brace yourself that the animal might die. BUT there are some logistical things that the Player/party must now figure out that might yet cause the player to change his mind. Where is the bear placed in the marching order? Unless the bear is a juvenile I would rule that it is too big to allow a character to walk beside it in a 10X10 corridor. If the party opts to place the bear at the rear and the Ranger near the front, when a combat breaks out with the Ranger involved, rule that the bear goes into a protective fury and bowls over the characters in front of it to get close to the Ranger in order to fight alongside it's leader. If the bear gets wounded, tell the Ranger/party that it brays out complaining about the pain every three rounds or even every round if the wounds are significant, thereby ruining any chance for the party to move about the dungeon even somewhat quietly.
These things could happen. Going back to what the 2E PH says about Ranger Creature followers: "In all cases the Ranger does not gain any special method of communicating with his followers." Unless the Ranger has a way of speaking to the bear, the PC can't tell the bear not to do these things. With the bear being more high maintenance then the party expected they themselves might suggest to the Player Ranger that maybe this isn't such a good idea.
If you're Player argues about this or your enforcing other logistical issues, well I feel that a statement Garhkal made on the topic of Demi-human level limits applies to this situation (but I'm not wading into that discussion). He said " So if players want to take race XYZ for all the benefits it gives, they need to understand they also have limiters on them..." It's the same thing for your Player Ranger; if they are going to enjoy the attack power of the bear in the dungeon then they have to figure out and deal with the issues we've been talking about...or hopefully take it out of the dungeon.
Anyway these are my feelings about it. Really wish I could've gotten this up sooner. If you feel like it, let us know how you decided to handle the situation and how it played out.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

RPG Dinosaur wrote:

H-B, I wanted to reply last Sunday, but got swept up in an extremely busy week. Don't know if you've had your game session and already took a course of action regarding the PC Ranger wanting to bring animals, but I'll go ahead and jump in even if you've already moved on

Thanks! Actually, the next adventure isn't written yet. But events are going to end up leading them back to a pretty extensive dungeon environment where some unfinished business from the past is going to lead them. Bringing animals in here would probably be more a hindrance than a help.

It's pretty clear that you don't want to deal with having to DM having the Rangers animals come into the dungeon. I think you partially provided the answer in your own post and I also really like what Garhkal said about the matter. You said "How do you feed a bear in a dungeon?" and "Can you even get a bear into the dungeon?" If I were you I'd enforce that the Player Ranger have to deal with these logistical issues, and every other conceivable one as well, with no advice from you. Make sure the player knows that before the adventure begins, if you haven't already done so. This might cause the Player to reconsider right then and there. You aren't being unfair to the Player, you are executing your position as DM appropriately.

Good point (both of you). It really is their decision. I'd just hate to see them go through the dungeon and end up with not only dead animal followers, but soon after facing undead animal follower enemies!

By the way, I see a bear far more likely to enter the dungeon than a hawk or raven, because they hibernate in small confined spaces. You said " Seems to me a bear or worse yet a hawk will not feel like being confined to a dungeon..." If that's how you feel, go with that feeling, start the adventure and when the party arrives at the dungeon inform the PC Ranger that the animals are balking at going in. Again, maybe this will cause the Player to reconsider taking them in. If you are playing 1E I would tell the Player that their bird just won't come in and that they have to make a percentile roll of say, 61-00 or the bear refuses to go in also. 2E is a little bit different IMO because the in the P. Handbook Rangers section dealing with followers it says "While the followers are automatically loyal and friendly toward the Ranger..." I guess that your Player could reference that statement and argue that the followers loyalty to the Ranger would make the animals push through their inhibitions about entering the dungeon. In that case I would still make the Player roll, with somewhat better chances of coaxing the animals inside. Say for 2E, a roll of 56-00 gets the bear inside and with 2E the Ranger actually has a chance (not a very good one) of getting the bird inside on a roll of 91-00. Of course, you can determine your own percentile chances as you feel appropriate

I hadn't thought much about that. You're right. Animals would resist being taken into a dangerous dungeon area. Even with the 2E ranger ability to charm animals, animals can sense undead and would probably gain a bonus to resist the ranger's commands. And now that you have me thinking about it, wasn't there something in 2E written about abused followers leaving the employ of their masters? That would certainly apply to animal followers too!

Let's continue the example by assuming that the Player made the roll for the bear (but not the bird) and it is coming with the party. At this point Hal, you're just going to have to brace yourself that the animal might die.

Well, as long as they don't say I didn't warn them!

It just seems to me to be such a waste to gain animal followers only to have them die on their first outing and then likely become raised as undead. But as Garhkal pointed out, it's the player's animal followers, so it's up to that player how he plays it. While I am an animal lover in real life and don't generally focus on egregious animal slaying in AD&D games, I have no problem with orcs and other enemies killing (and sometimes even eating! ) the PCs' horses, etc. It's part of the "reality" of the game. I guess my mind is in the mode of "why the hell would you bring animals into that dungeon?". Seems like a bad choice to me, but again, it's certainly up to the players, not me.

Where is the bear placed in the marching order? Unless the bear is a juvenile I would rule that it is too big to allow a character to walk beside it in a 10X10 corridor. If the party opts to place the bear at the rear and the Ranger near the front, when a combat breaks out with the Ranger involved, rule that the bear goes into a protective fury and bowls over the characters in front of it to get close to the Ranger in order to fight alongside it's leader. If the bear gets wounded, tell the Ranger/party that it brays out complaining about the pain every three rounds or even every round if the wounds are significant, thereby ruining any chance for the party to move about the dungeon even somewhat quietly.

It's a huge grizzly bear, so either it scouts ahead and risks getting ambushed first, or it lags behind and the PCs risk getting trampled in the charge! That's a big damned bear! I wonder how much a bear needs to eat per day? Hmmm.

These things could happen. Going back to what the 2E PH says about Ranger Creature followers: "In all cases the Ranger does not gain any special method of communicating with his followers." Unless the Ranger has a way of speaking to the bear, the PC can't tell the bear not to do these things. With the bear being more high maintenance then the party expected they themselves might suggest to the Player Ranger that maybe this isn't such a good idea.

If it were me, I'd have the bear, the hawk, and the others staying behind to guard the base camp. I think the ranger has speak with animals as one of his spells, so that shouldn't be a problem either way. Might help when the bear, being ordered to enter the dungeon, essentially growls "Screw you!".

If you're Player argues about this or your enforcing other logistical issues, well I feel that a statement Garhkal made on the topic of Demi-human level limits applies to this situation (but I'm not wading into that discussion). He said " So if players want to take race XYZ for all the benefits it gives, they need to understand they also have limiters on them..." It's the same thing for your Player Ranger; if they are going to enjoy the attack power of the bear in the dungeon then they have to figure out and deal with the issues we've been talking about...or hopefully take it out of the dungeon.

Come on...you know you want to dip your toe into the demihuman level limits debate! It's fun!

True though - the ranger has the problem of feeding and protecting the bear if he wants to take it in as backup.

Anyway these are my feelings about it. Really wish I could've gotten this up sooner. If you feel like it, let us know how you decided to handle the situation and how it played out.

Will do! I really want to write an outdoor adventure where the animal followers can have a greater role. As I said before, we usually have at least a few animal followers, as many of my players like rangers. But usually they keep them in the background or on low level adventures. This player would love to incorporate them more actively, so that's a challenge. It'd be fun to see them used more, though I'd hate to see them wiped out on their very first outing.

[garhkal]

Got this from the world wildlife fund's site..

Bears eat different amounts daily depending on species. (Grizzly, Polar, Panda, Black). Grizzly bears eat about 40 pounds of food a day! Thoses forty pounds consist of fish, squirels, even people.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Holy sh!t! Talk about encumbrance!

[garhkal]

Yup.. Though you COULD say the party could get away with letting the bear gorge himself on killed foes..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Unless he's a finicky bear! But yeah, that's a good idea. Not sure it'd eat undead (probably foul tasting even to a bear) but most things could probably become dinner.

[garhkal]

Actually t o me, most animals even followers/friends of druids/rangers, will balk and generally want to get as far as possible from damn near ALL undead. Skeletons are the only exception to that.. Heck i had one group who asked "Could my trio of war dogs gain a bonus to HIT them, cause of wanting some good chew bone toys"

[RPG Dinosaur]

And now that you have me thinking about it, wasn't there something in 2E written about abused followers leaving the employ of their masters? That would certainly apply to animal followers too!

Here's what is says about that: "While the followers are automatically loyal and friendly toward the Ranger, their future behavior depends on the Rangers treatment of them.

Heck i had one group who asked "Could my trio of war dogs gain a bonus to HIT them, cause of wanting some good chew bone toys"

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Actually t o me, most animals even followers/friends of druids/rangers, will balk and generally want to get as far as possible from damn near ALL undead. Skeletons are the only exception to that.. Heck i had one group who asked "Could my trio of war dogs gain a bonus to HIT them, cause of wanting some good chew bone toys"

I agree 100%. In fact, I could swear I remember reading something in the rules about animals being able to sense undead and being very wary of approaching undead. I'd give that PC a bonus for humor on that one, asking for the bonus to hit because the war dog wanted a chew toy!

[lanir]

Might help to remember your PC has animal followers because they understand them better than most people. They have a bond with the animal and know a fair amount about it's reactions and behaviors. They can also read it's moods and reactions a bit better than normal even without a spell. If you hit it from both ends like that it might help your player visualize this the way you do. If that happens you won't need to worry about anything like this again.

About the undead thing, Pathfinder treats this as "tricks" you can train your pet to do. One of which is "attack" a designated foe. To teach a pet to attack an undead (and other unnatural creatures for that matter) takes special training. You have to teach it the "attack" trick twice. Pathfinder is generally too rulesy for me but they're probably on the right track.