Cole wrote:
Lots of great points here made guys. Like I said before many times, this argument could go on for eternity.
Oh trust me, I've been discussing/debating it for what seems like eternity!
It never gets old though, and unbelievably, every time I get into it I feel like I gain more insight than I previously had. What a wild topic!
Gar pointed out that Elves breed slower than Humans, yes that's true, same goes for Dwarves, but over vast amounts of time (IE from the beginning of a world to it's current state) say 50,000 years, even with a birthrate 1/10th a human's, you still end up lopsided with Elves. It's a math solution.
True, but there are plenty of other factors we need to consider. How about death rates? Are elves subject to more frequent plagues due to location (sorta like how Ebola is a frequent threat in Africa but really not a concern in North America)? If Ebola evolved to an easily-spread airborne version, we could easily see an extinction of entire countries in Africa. Well maybe not necessarily in 2017 with all our technology, but 100 or even 50 years ago, sure!
What if elves live in an area similar to Europe, where they are in the central area and surrounded by orcs, goblins, and bugbears? They may be in a constant state of warfare and in threat of being killed off by their enemies to the point where they lose enough members of their society to keep their population numbers low. And hell, even if their population numbers stayed high over time, they'd be too busy fighting the orcs, bugbears and goblins full time to even consider crossing the sea to a North/South/Central America-like human nation to conquer.
I believe it was Garhkal who quoted from the Elf Handbook that part about how so many elves becoming depressed and reclusive. Well, if half your population becomes so deeply depressed and withdrawn, and another chunk of the population is stuck tending to them in some manner (even just giving minor support), that leaves a lot fewer elves to go out conquering the world. Same for the urge to retreat from the world. In Tolkein, Forgotten Realms and AD&D itself, elves eventually tire of the world and retreat to their own lands. Population numbers don't mean much in these cases.
And of course, we still have the entire issue of
intent. Just because someone or some group of being has
the ability to do something does not by default imply they have
an interest in doing something. Elves may just be so long lived and advanced that they see the ultimate folly of war. It might be that, sure, they can wipe out the humans or the dwarves. But having the ability to do so does not mean they would ever want to.
For me the #1 thing is Interbreeding. No matter what, humans would slowly be eliminated this way completely. As Hal pointed out, yes perhaps even the elves would to. Half-Elves would eventually be everywhere (1/4 elves/1/8 elves etc). You can use REAL LIFE examples to prove that. 1 of 8 humans on earth are a descendant of Genghis Khan (So they say).
But that could be true or not true depending on a lot of things concerning how elves, humans, and half-elves see the issue. In real life, Genghis Khan (who was my great, great, great grandfather, some charge
) conquered a large area of the world by force. Elves very likely would not do so. Therefore, the example would be changed to one where that did not take place. Also, the DM could simply rule that elf/human mating rarely breeds successfully. This would make sense given how half-elves tend to be seen as outcasts, not totally trusted by either race. Aside from biological issues, there can also be racial, religious, and tribal taboos that would keep the interbreeding in check.
Also, almost EVERYONE has native indian somewhere in their lineage that lives in North America (unless you're relatives recently came across from Europe etc, that isn't many of us).
Again, it someone has 1/100th or even 1/25th Native American blood, or any other race/culture they're not aware of, how would they know? The only way I would know whether there is some different race or nationality in my bloodline beyond my great grandparents would be through DNA testing. If there were African, Asian, Hispanic, or other lineage in my family somewhere, there would be literally no way to tell outside of DNA testing. Put into D&D terms, such a person would be realistically seen (and likely have all the full racial abilities of) their most apparent race. A human with a great, great, great grandparent who was elven would likely not show any elven features or abilites, therefore would be considered fully human. I would also argue that being 1/50th elf will not allow a person who is 98% human to see 3 ft. in the dark due to a slight elven DNA in the family history. D&D is not meant to be that scientifically picky.
Now switch Mongolians for Elves and you'll see my point. Now I see Hal pointing out the Mongolians are aggressive and surged across the country side, yeah they did, but Native Americans didn't. They simply interbred (some by force). You also have the fact that HUMANS are aggressive and even though the Elves wouldn't attack human areas, you forget HUMANs would definately attack the Elves. As Humans evolve they naturally want more power and want to expand (This has been seen in real life from the beginning of time). Elves just aren't going to sit back and let Human's kill em all off. Thus again, over vast amounts of time, the human's persistently get wiped out (or held off), die off and start over and over again, while those Elves continue to interbreed and continue to gain levels (power) and albeit slowly, are still producing more offspring over their generational growth.
A good point, but then there is the issue of racial and religious taboos, and so on. And as I said before, the DM need simply rule that 99% of the time, an elf/human hybrid will not succeed, which is why half-elves are so rare and viewed so suspiciously. "Problem" solved. On top of that, we also still have other considerations, such as susceptibility to plagues, lack of desire for war, geographic isolation, preoccupation with other rival races, etc.
The best I can do (and some will see this as racist I'm sure, even though it's not a race), i'll use the current "Muslim" model. Several extremist Muslims have stated publically in the UK that they will eventually interbreed with everyone so much that ALL of Europe will be to at least some extent Muslim or ruled by Islamic ideals etc within 50 years. You can google those stats if you like. Muslims have up to 8 kids commonly nowadays and other faiths/people simply don't (1/2 being normal, myself included). Simple math and time will tell you that EVERYONE on Earth will be a Muslim if this pattern continues. 1.8 BILLION muslims on earth today, it wasn't long ago this was only a few hundred million.
A very true and important point, regardless of whether it offends anyone (Islam isn't a race, as you point out). It's reality. In Islam, this is known as al-hijra, the act of conquering other nations via emigration and population explosion. An imam recently called on Muslims in Europe to infect and destroy that continent through breeding:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lling.html
But here is a consideration - if the Muslims were not allowed in, if they were fought against, they would not be able to accomplish the act of al-hijra. Their only options would be:
1) Conquer Europe by force
2) Stay in their own lands
So translating that back into AD&D, if the elves simply do not allow humans to co-exist within their kingdoms, and isolate humans by force, then the humans could not outbreed the elves. And going back to my earlier example and bringing it to the real world, if for some reason Muslims could not interbreed with Europeans, then they would not be able to achieve al-hijra because they would not be able to interbreed. The only way would be to out-breed the Europeans, not interbreed. And then the issue would be resolved simply by not allowing them to migrate to Europe.
So again, a simple solution that alleviates the problem.
The white man is a dying breed on Earth. You can't stop it, it's inevitable. If China didn't impose a 1 child law many many years ago now, we would all be part Chinese.
Unless, of course, China was isolated and/or not allowed to migrate/breed with other races, or were genetically unable to breed with other humans. However, in AD&D terms,
the DM is god. The DM can simply alter reality as he sees fit. The DM says:
"Well, humans tend to breed a lot, while elves don't breed as often, and they are almost never able to successfully crossbreed." Bingo! Problem solved.
Borders and topography have no bearing on this, every race migrates/expands eventually.
True to a point. But remember, we're looking at it from a perspective of living in America in the 21st century, where I can literally fly to the other side of the planet and impregnate a woman of another race living there within a matter of a few hours. And all human races can interbreed. That may not be so for elves and humans if the DM so decides. Also, even in real life there are racial issues along these lines. An organ transplant from a human of another race is far more likely to be rejected than a transplant from someone of the same race. There is enough genetic difference to cause minor issues like this. Same for different blood types. If you need blood and they give you the wrong type...bye bye! (On this part I mean blood type, i.e Type A, Type B, Type AB, etc. - I don't recall any racial issues with blood transfusions as compared with organ transplants, but I'd have to verify that). So it would be easy for the DM to simply rule that elves and humans generally have a hard time interbreeding.
Human's eventually breed with everything they can, and in AD&D it would be ELVES for certain. It doesn't take that many wars with Humans and Elves to make dozens of half-elves. Remember we are dealing with medieval times here. Rape is VERY common as well (the spoils of war some say). Over centuries and centuries of inevitable war (with Humans being the aggressors) you still end up with hundred of thousands of half-elves (That's where the official rules seem to falter). The books make it seem half-elves are super rare and that's fine for most campaigns, but as I stated above, realistically Half-Elves would be everywhere over a long period of evolution. (Some only a 64th Elf maybe or a 32nd, again like millions of Americans are with Native blood in them). And yes Hal, those Europeans came across the Atlantic, the seas didn't stop them
Again, we're making an unfair comparison. All human races can interbreed just fine. Even then though, there is an issue with organ transplants that shows some limit to interchangeability. But we're talking about a fantasy game in which other "races" are actually truly other races, not different nationalities or ethnicities. Elves may not be able to breed with gnomes, or dwarves may not be able to breed with humans, etc. In AD&D, cross-breeding an elf and a human is more like trying to cross breed a gorilla and a human than simply two humans of different skin colors or ethnicities. And as far as the DM is concerned, it could be as difficult to cross breed an elf and a human as it is to cross breed a human and an alligator in real life!
In a fantasy setting, you simply substitute East Indians/Chinese/Muslims whatever you like for Elves/Dwarves/Orcs and you'll end up with a super diverse and interbreed world as we have on Earth. No boundaries or borders have stopped this.
Again, there are major differences between the real world and fantasy worlds. Hell, in an AD&D setting, the DM could just as well proclaim that the gods themselves do not allow their follower races to interbreed at all, or perhaps only on rare occasions. It is a fantasy game after all, and anything goes (as long as it's believable I say, and most of my arguments are totally believable).
Also, in AD&D terms, the issue of barriers could be more significant. Perhaps the humans and elves are divided by a range of mountains where the
smallest peak is the size of Mt. Everest!
And the mountains could be infested with monsters. In a typical medieval setting, magic or not, that's going to be a nearly impossible problem to surmount in any significant way. Or perhaps they're separated by an ocean that is not only so stormy as to make ours seem like placid ponds, but also filled with fierce monsters (kraken, morkoths, leviathans, etc). Again, even in a magic rich medieval setting - almost impossible to surmount on a meaningful enough level to threaten the race(s) on the other side.
With the Orcs (in my example) simple breeding will everrun everything left unchecked. They are aggressive and yes they will fight each other, but officially only 10% of them are culled off from internal fighting. If NOT absolutely confined to their own continent etc they will expand and they WILL kill off all the humans. Numbers ALWAYS WIN eventually. As Hal used the LOTR reference for an argument, so shall I. The Orcs in the movies simply overran everything (some being magically made though in LOTR). It took ALL the humans/elves and dwarves to stop them from conquering Middle-Earth. A great tale on film, but if you think about it logically (ALL of these Orcs popped up in roughly over a few generations) Just poof, there they were (Imagine those Orcs having centuries to breed on a confined continent at AD&D rates. YUP, it would be like an ant hill and although they are dumb, they eventually would make ships to sail across oceans. But I digress, level limits have nothing to do with this either.
As you point out, orcs do breed faster than rabbits. But the DM has so many tools to handle this that he has total control over it. I do notice it's always funny that (aside from you) people never seem to worry about orcs taking over, but instead wring their hands over that awful threat of high level elves.
Elves are peaceful and tend to retreat from the world, orcs breed like rabbits on viagra and steroids and are totally evil and violent.
Now I will admit, this level limit thing has NO BEARING on most of my points (Hal is right), but as a DM I use it (as you guys pointed out), to control the amount of Human characters being made in my world (straight up). Without these limits, everyone at my table would make half-elves, dwarves and Elves, I doubt I would ever see a Human again ( I would like to think otherwise). Yet the limits are there to prevent the super high level Elves / Dwarves etc from populating the realm as a whole.
Controlling the number of humans in the party is a legitimate use of the rule, I admit, although I still insist its a clumsy and illogical rule nonetheless. And I repeat myself here, but I need to point out - so what if the players all play elves and dwarves? I mean sure, if the DM prefers having at least some humans simply because of personal taste or because he has a compelling reason (an Underdark campaign, doesn't want all the PCs to be able to see in the dark, etc), there's nothing wrong with that. Although I don't personally care for pushing my preferences on the players - I can enjoy DMing a group of 6 gnomes if that's what the players wish to play. But the rule is
absolutely unnecessary to maintain a human-ocentric
world/setting. That is totally up to the DM to figure out. And there's really no rule/mechanic needed.
Hal states many times that Elves are not aggressive (obviously true), but again I point out the Humans are and naturally would attack the Elves over and over again throughout time. IE the Hitlers of the Humans. If there were no limits, those Elves would eventually get fed up with those pesky Humans next kingdom over and wipe em out (easily with 80th lv armies).
Again though, look at real life. Germany hasn't invaded other countries on a war of conquest since WWII. Same for Japan. Say the humans declare war on the elves, and the elves bomb them back to the stone age. Humans will take many generations to recover. Meanwhile, the elves will go about their business peacefully. And looking at the real world, look at what happened in WWII. America bombed and fire-bombed (virtually destroyed) Germany, and nuked the hell out of Japan. Then we peacefully rebuilt everything and now both are our allies. If it can happen in real life, it can happen in a fantasy world. Perhaps the humans soon come to realize that it's just about as smart to attack an elf as it is to spit in a Navy SEAL's beer.
The humans would eventually learn not to attack the elves for reasons of pure self-preservation. And they may well become strong allies with the elves, teaming up against the constant, insanely fast development of the orcish and goblinoid empires.
And as Hal pointed out, even IF outnumbered (which is impossible over an extensive chronology), they would still win. With a cap system, those same Elves are limited in power. They would have the numbers (as the basically never die as they don't go to war often). Even with 1 - 5th the children, they still have more than 40x the physical time to breed new generations.
Again, we have to assume a lot of things before the elves can become a threat to humankind.
You can always be a DM that's makes sure that this doesn't affect your world by using wars, mountains, oceans etc to slow the effect or to outright stomp out these issues, but it doesn't change the fact that evolution/inbreeding and super powerful beings would eventually eliminate Humans from a long term /realistic setting.
However, as Hal pointed out, IF your DM wants to, they can write up any excuse they need to avoid this problem. Your world is only limited to your imagination. I just prefer to design a world design where I don't need to make excuses and my players CANNOT argue with me. Math never lies
My argument has always been though, that even taking math into consideration, you're only looking at that one dimension of the issue. It's not about making excuses, it's about designing reasons. There's a huge difference there. The former is like saying
"Well, um...well, because it's..um...magic! Yeah, that's why!". The latter is about designing a logical, well thought out world that makes sense.
In order for elves (or any other demi-human race) to be considered an existential threat to humans, there are certain logical prerequisites which must be met:
1.
Desire/Intent - Before we consider anything else, we'd first have to establish that elves have the
desire and/or
intent to eradicate humankind. That is not a default assumption, nor is it logical based on how elves are presented in the AD&D rules or in settings such as the Forgotten Realms or literature such as Tolkein. In each of those cases, elves are presented as peaceful, reclusive, and in the process of retreating from the world of man. They are also presented as a highly civilized, enlightened and advanced race. The general rule is that peaceful beings do not seek war or conquest, nor do civilized/advanced/enlightened societies. So on all counts and in every way, elves simply do not have the desire or intent to eradicate/dominate the human race. Sure, the DM can
declare this to be the case, but
on its own merits, by default, this argument fails the test - in literature, game settings and core rules alike, elves are presented as a race that would simply not be (or become) an existential threat to humans because they simply don't have an evil, genocidal tendency.
2.
Ability - Next we would have to demonstrate the
ability of elves to dominate/conquer/eradicate humans. By default, this is not necessarily true. According to the Elf Handbook, elves tend to become reclusive, depressed and withdrawn. Reclusive/withdrawn people tend not to have the drive to go out and conquer. There is also the issue of lower Constitution for elves. Being forest beings, they may simply not be suited to harsh, cold climates and therefore unable to assault the cold-living humans. Humans can advance to very high levels (unlimited) as paladins, druids, monks, and other classes. Elves cannot. The DM also controls (by DM fiat, subject to internal logic and consistency) whether or not there are population numbers sufficient for elves to go to war with humans, much less win such a war. Perhaps the retreat of the elves to Evermeet or wherever is now nearly complete in the DM's world. The elves left behind would be a very small number which would simply lack the ability to defeat the human race. The ability of the elven race to destroy the human race is not established by default due to so many potential roadblocks to that ability. So this also fails the test.
3.
Opportunity - We would next have to demonstrate the
opportunity of the elves to destroy the human race. Going back to my example, what if the elves live in an area similar to a country in Europe, surrounded by orcs, bugbears, goblins and others. They would be kept far too busy fighting for their own survival against these super-fast breeding and violent/aggressive races to send ships across the ocean (which itself may be filled with violent storms, giant monsters, ship-sucking whirlpools, other monstrous demihuman races - morkoth, sahuagin, lacedon, etc) to a fantasy North America to conquer those lands. Or even the gods may interfere - the elven or human gods may simply not allow a genocide of their followers. There can be my aforementioned mountain ranges where the smallest mountains dwarf Mt. Everest, or vast deserts populated with brown and blue dragons, giant scorpions, tlincalli, giants, and all other sorts of monsters. Or perhaps they're separated by deadly swamps teeming with lizardmen and other monsters. The elves may be fighting off a curse or a plague or some other threat that demands their attention to ensure their survival. I can go on and on and write an entire book full of logical reasons they lack the ability to conquer or eradicate humans. So the argument fails the opportunity test as well.
4.
Reason - What compelling
reason would the elves have to eradicate humans? Why would an enlightened, peace-loving, advanced race wish to eradicate another race? Granted, the DM can use your example of the elves getting tired of the humans constantly declaring war on them and therefore deciding on a "Final Solution",
but that is not necessarily the default situation. Humans need not necessarily be a threat to the elves. As in my aforementioned examples, perhaps the humans would need to cross an ocean filled with storms and monsters and other races, or cross a range of massive mountains filled with monsters, or vast deserts. If humans are not a threat to the elves, then what reason would they have to attack the humans, much less wipe them out? Would not a peaceful, advanced elven race generally tend to see less developed races (such as humans) as children to be taught by example and helped along their path to enlightenment and higher civilization as opposed to threats needing annihilation? And would it not be more benevolent and in keeping with their peaceful values to simply avoid contact with the less civilized nations of humans, and/or develop relations with friendlier human nations and other races (dwarves, gnomes, etc) to isolate and deter the few bad human kingdoms? People in urban areas (like Chicago for example) do not like pigeons. They shit on everything and swarm anything they come across to grab a morsel of food. But we don't try to eradicate all birds, or even the pigeons alone. We put up barriers, we partner with hawks to scare them off, we put repellant devices in place, etc. Are elves so savage that they would genocide the human race simply because some of them can be violent? In fact, the issue of allowing elves unlimited advancement actually
disproves the silly argument of elves conquering the world. As a human, I have evolved far beyond the power of ants. If one group of ants invades my house, yes, I'll kill that group off. But I have no reason or desire to go to the park and dig up every and colony and destroy it. I couldn't care less what they do as long as they don't attack me. And if they do, I can easily defeat them. Given enough time, I could well design a high-level repellant that would ensure no ants can ever attack my home. I have no compelling reason to go genocide the ants. Likewise, 100th level elven wizards may simply devise an impregnable magical shield using high elven magic and simply repel any human invaders. They'd simply have no inherent reason or desire to kill off humans. So the argument fails the reason test as well.
That pretty much sums it up. Elves do not necessarily (and in most cases do not, period!) have the desire/intent, ability, opportunity, or reason to eradicate humans. The whole 2E argument about elves conquering the world was a very poor argument, a silly one, an unfounded one, and one that does not make sense from any perspective given the AD&D rules, the FR setting, or literary sources such as Tolkein. I have no idea why they used that goofy argument as a reason to include demi-human level limits. They should have simply said:
"Gygax wanted his players to play mainly humans, and that is the only actual use for the rule - to force your players to play humans."
At least that would have been both accurate and honest.
If your group doesn't have that problem and you want your players to be totally free about choosing classes then auction something else instead. I think as long as you have 3 auctions you're probably fine. 
