Predators (Yautja).. Evil or not?

[garhkal]

Ok, from watching both predator films, Predators, and both AvP films, we see that the Predator society seems rather bound to honor and glory, but do so by seeing all else (even sentient races such as humans) as nothing more than 'prey'.. So would you say that if you were to make a Predator race for ADND they would be LN or LE in alignment?

[JadedDM]

That they give priority to the thrill of the hunt over the lives of sapient beings make them Evil. If they hunted just to survive, killing only when necessary, I'd say Neutral.

[namenlos]

So this may be a foolish idea(I'm sure you've considered it, honestly) but humans hunt for sport or the pleasure of the hunt and take trophies etc. and while the animals are considered much less intelligent than humans. Is that the deciding factor that makes hunters not evil(unless you consider them evil )? This may be wildly out of proportion but if the Predators view humanity as that much less intelligent does it remain the same? You said sapient but in a Predator society prowess in hunting/combat is more(seemingly) more important than intelligence... so does that change the issue at all? From a purely human stand point they are pretty much evil. Granted I've heard the argument that just because it's their culture doesn't make it right, then again point that humanity "just because it's our culture doesn't mean we're right". I suppose this sort of assumes that morality isn't black or white, which may be right or wrong(not really the topic, heh).

I realize this is (probably) a pretty silly summation of ideas and possibly a childlike way to view this(but that's me, naive ).

[JadedDM]

It's not a matter of having MORE intelligence. A man with an IQ of 230 can't get away with killing a man with an IQ of 90, after all. Likewise, it is still considered immoral for humans to hunt dolphins, apes or other intelligent animals.

And I doubt the predators themselves think they are evil. Nobody ever thinks they are evil. I don't know how they justify it or what sort of moral system they have, if any. In fact, outside of they really like hunting, I don't know anything at all about their culture. I was speaking from a human perspective, but I assumed the question was being asked from a human perspective. The D&D alignment system is fairly objective. If you are evil, even if you believe you are good, you'll still ping as evil if someone uses Detect Evil or Know Alignment on you.

[namenlos]

I agree with what you've said. Some context for my response is that I've been reading some other posts off site(gasp! ) that were in regards to moral quandaries and this sort of fit into that(in my mind). [Added after completing my post] I enjoyed your answer and it made me think, thus my response(for good or ill :p )... I may be playing the Devils advocate here(not trying to annoy you with what if scenarios) but well... here you go --->

Just some ideas that I had while reading your own reply(might be good, might be bad, just my thoughts). Your examples work as far as westernized nations but their are others that don't follow the "don't kill dolphins or apes"(not sure on other intelligent animals, I guess pigs are supposed to be fairly "smart" but are slaughtered in the... millions?) and some are fairly cavalier in their killing of humans, probably without thinking themselves the bad guy(this may come off as but, but... this!).

D&D has the whole godly influence+spheres etc. which I think is limiting on alignments...? If you have a god of good you sort of Have to set a bar, I guess. Then the obvious, mechanics just needed it... and not wanting to scare people away with the idea that actions are neither intrinsically good nor evil.

[garhkal]

I actually do see hunting for just sport, evil. At least not neutral. Now hunting for need (food, skins to make clothing) and such, that is neutral..

[JadedDM]

I maintain that one cannot apply alignment based on culture, because then everybody is Lawful Good by default. The Drow believe they are totally justified in their actions, but that doesn't make them any less evil. Nobody aside from Saturday morning cartoon villains believe they are evil.

My interpretations of Good and Evil are fairly simple; I cannot say for certain how 'Westernized' they are. Good is, in my mind, helping others at a cost to yourself. Evil, on the other hand, is harming others to benefit yourself. Neutrality, really, is just simple survival.

Using this metric, hunting for food is neutral. It's necessary for survival and all animals do it. Hunting for sport, therefore, would constitute an evil act. You are harming a living being because you enjoy it. Harming sapient beings is more evil than harming lesser animals, but both would still be considered evil acts using that simple metric.

[namenlos]

I hope I'm not coming off poorly here, my own actual opinions are vague and can change easily. I may also be thinking too hard about this, or just conflating the issues

Garhkal: I agree a bit, though I'm not sure if I'd classify sport hunting as Evil... if you bring an animal near extinction into the equation i'd agree 100%.

Jaded: I agree, pretty much across the board. There are just a few that I'm not really sure about. i guess I just don't know what I think, I personally would er on the side of caution. I agree that the Drows actions are evil but to claim that they are considering the society they are brought up in and the emotional and psychological trauma that entails makes it less of an open evil case to me. That might be opening up a whole other can of worms and I apologize if if I'm swerving the topic off it's intended direction.

I wish my thoughts were, as you say, so fairly simple. My own problems might be skewing my responses, it's hard to differentiate sometimes. Westernized may have been a poor choice of words, or just not worth mentioning. The differences between the growth of other nations has surprised me, laws, propriety, whats good and whats bad etc... I dunno, I see some big differences in other countries based on that... but I dunno if that really makes it that different either.

The people I've met have forced me to wonder about stuff such as good and evil... and my own actions encountering those people... or more precisely my inaction. Working as a bartender brought a lot of these situations to the light... I dunno, I reflect back on those encounters and wonder(too much) about what I SHOULD have done differently.

[RivenBlade]

A while back (reallllly long while back) a magazine called Inquest adapted movie monster/alien types for AD&D including the Yajuta (as well as the Terminator, Xenomorphs, worms from Tremors and others), because of they hunt for sport (sentients in particular) yet hold to their code of honour the article described them as Lawful Evil- if this helps any.

[Stik]

What criteria are we to use to measure evil? Is evil absolute, independent of intent, or is it a choice every sentient creature makes?

Let's take, for example, a little boy frying ants using a magnifying glass.
If nobody has taught the boy that it is wrong, is it an evil act? My answer to that question is 'no'. He doesn't know any better.
Now suppose that boy's father sees him frying ants and explains that they are living creatures and that killing them for no reason is wrong - a bad thing to do. If the boy starts doing it again, he is choosing to do wrong, and therefore it is an evil act.

Are the yautja choosing to do something that they know is wrong/bad/evil? Or are they merely participating in their culture?

And just to muddy the waters a little bit, let's recall that the yautja only hunt creatures capable of killing them. They are pitting themselves against the strongest, most dangerous predators in a given environment, and risking their own lives in the process.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

JadedDM wrote:

I maintain that one cannot apply alignment based on culture, because then everybody is Lawful Good by default. The Drow believe they are totally justified in their actions, but that doesn't make them any less evil. Nobody aside from Saturday morning cartoon villains believe they are evil.

I'm not sure I agree there. I know plenty of people who do wrong, who hurt others, who commit crimes knowingly and willingly. They see and know that they are harming others, they know that they are engaging in criminal behavior. They simply don't care. It's in some ways a narcissistic tendency (evil that is). Many serial killers admit to being evil, they know they are. It's just that they succumb to evil and/or don't care that they're evil. They may justify it in their minds, but they know it's evil.

Jeffrey Dahmer (serial killer) said: "I know I was evil or sick or both". He also wondered if he was just evil or simply influenced by Satan.
Richard Ramirez (serial killer) spoke of loving Satan and being filled with hate and wishing he could be more evil. He admitted he was evil, but not 100% evil though he wished he could be so.
HH Holmes (serial killer) said he was "born with the devil inside me".

So I think people know if they're being evil, just as they know if they're being good.

[Stik]

That argument, HB, relies upon knowing that there is a difference.

[namenlos]

Another silly comment from yours truly

We don't really know what Preds' do on their off time... So if after hunting and beating up on Danny Glover the Preds head home and volunteer at habitat for humanity and feed the homeless, etc. do they remain evil?

I guess I assume that they're pretty evil because I can't imagine them being nurturing parents(which I consider good). All we know is that they hunt viciously, strong should kill the weak kinda stuff, but I have a hard time imagining a predator hurting a child... more like they'd go out of their way NOT to hurt an innocent. I dunno, ramble, ramble, ramble

[garhkal]

Another silly comment from yours truly

We don't really know what Preds' do on their off time... So if after hunting and beating up on Danny Glover the Preds head home and volunteer at habitat for humanity and feed the homeless, etc. do they remain evil?

I guess I assume that they're pretty evil because I can't imagine them being nurturing parents(which I consider good). All we know is that they hunt viciously, strong should kill the weak kinda stuff, but I have a hard time imagining a predator hurting a child... more like they'd go out of their way NOT to hurt an innocent. I dunno, ramble, ramble, ramble

Well, we saw in most of the films they won't kill those pregnant, sick, so they do not willingly go after those who are 'innocent (child like)', like in Pred 2, where that one looked at that kid who had the plastic gun.. he left him be..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

That argument, HB, relies upon knowing that there is a difference.

That's my point. So many of them do know there's a difference. They're just so self centered and uncaring that they don't worry about consequences. I mean, sure, if you get someone who's got command hallucinations telling them to do things or mental issues where they don't truly understand that they're doing wrong, then there's an argument. But so many evil people do know they're doing something that's considered evil. And many of them admit they're evil.