What Makes Heroes

[Hopcat]

In the context of the medieval fantasy hack&slash adventure, we generally find players, via their characters, monsters, and everyone else.

But I've been wondering, of late, if the systems I am familiar with (old TSR editiions) put the wrong spin on it.

Simply put, (in AD&D 1E) just to be a character requires one to be a "hero" before one even leaves town! Stats need to be full filled that, in most cases, are well beyond the common citizenry; from which the characters come, by the way! (WTF is that all about?) So why shouldn't we expect them to do heroic things? Why shouldn't they be out slaying demons and dragons and ogres and giants and...? Nothing so unusual about that?

But, is that where "real" heroes come from? Is it really so heroic for Superman, of Flash, or the Green Lantern or Wonder Woman to defeat the BBEG, or for joe-citizen? The corner butcher, the carpenter's son, the baker's daughter, clearly lack the heroic characteristics, but doesn't it historically always come down to just the joe-shmoe little guy going out and slaying the BBE?

Sure, there's more to it than that. But, for you, which has more of a ring of heroism to it?

[adaon]

I think it depends on what you define as "common citizenry".

In any game I've played, despite my starting abilities or the loot from a few quests there was always an abundance of danger around me. Many characters or beasts met along the way, be they friend or foe, were much stronger than I or required some special object/tactic to defeat them. So while I may have been gifted with a few choice attributes, I was on the relatively low end of the totem pole.

So by the end of some heroic adventure, most likely my character had gone through a rather joseph cambell-esque series of challenges and redemption.

[phindar]

My problem with heroism as D&D defines it is that it falls into the category of violence for fun and profit. It usually doesn't cost anything to do the right thing, and you usually turn a tidy profit. (In fairness, doing the right thing is usually more trouble than doing it the easy way, but PC's are still going to make money on the deal.)

For me, the best speech on heroism that I can find on short notice is Bronson's line from The Magnificent Seven:

Village Boy 2: We're ashamed to live here. Our fathers are cowards.

O'Reilly: Don't you ever say that again about your fathers, because they are not cowards. You think I am brave because I carry a gun; well, your fathers are much braver because they carry responsibility, for you, your brothers, your sisters, and your mothers. And this responsibility is like a big rock that weighs a ton. It bends and it twists them until finally it buries them under the ground. And there's nobody says they have to do this. They do it because they love you, and because they want to. I have never had this kind of courage. Running a farm, working like a mule every day with no guarantee anything will ever come of it. This is bravery. That's why I never even started anything like that... that's why I never will.

But that type of heroism isn't particularly cinematic, and it wouldn't make a terribly exciting game. Still I like to keep it in mind because while my characters might be heroes in one sense because they're fighting the ogres and dragons of the world to protect the weak and the innocent, in another sense they're basically saps that can't hold down a day job.

[Stik]

It is important to remember that the D&D game is intended to simulate heroic fantasy, not reality.

Heroic fantasy is about great and exceptional events. Nobody wants to read, or play, a heroic fantasy about the shopkeeper who manages to fill orders with amazing speed, or about the most accomplished rat-catcher in the kingdom.

The PCs get a leg up by being exceptional to begin with. True, a first level fighter isn't much compared to a high-level one, but he's certainly a cut above the average joe on the street.

[Hopcat]

It is important to remember that the D&D game is intended to simulate heroic fantasy, not reality.

Heroic fantasy is about great and exceptional events. Nobody wants to read, or play, a heroic fantasy about the shopkeeper who manages to fill orders with amazing speed, or about the most accomplished rat-catcher in the kingdom.

The PCs get a leg up by being exceptional to begin with. True, a first level fighter isn't much compared to a high-level one, but he's certainly a cut above the average joe on the street.

True. And the ratcatcher or shopkeeper that must go out to the mountains and slay the dragon that holds his village hostage is, in the context of my blog, far more heroic than the hired mercenaries/characters who are expected to do this kind of thing as a mundane part of their existence.

Clearly, I think it highly improbable to make such a game exciting if all the players do is make bread, skin hogs, or sing at a local pub. But take them out of their comfort zone, and place world-pending quests upon them, and thus is the stuff of heroic adventure, IMO. Not watching Heracles or Perseus slay another hydra, or kill another minotaur.

[adaon]

Heroism also takes on new meaning depending on the style of game, i.e. role-players Vs Roll players. For example I played on a NWN server that was extremely low level, low tech, almost everything was player built, including towns. Killing beasts didn't give any XP, it was only awarded by the DM when players were roleplaying. It was quite a fun system and we ended up going on many rather exciting adventures, despite the fact that no one was higher than level three. And most were lower. So while we were forced to think our way out of situations, at the end of the day our characters were rather normal, and more than susceptible to being killed by a single, random wild animal. Thus we were very much part of the "common citizenry" and still quite heroic.

[Jenara]

This is supposed to be a fantasy Role Playing Game, its just unwritten that its a Heroic Fantasy Game. After all who wants to play a normal person? Or even worse who wants to play a Bad Guy?

Its weird how every character seems to have at least one score over 15... Anything over 12 is better than average, no one seems to want to play a character with poor scores...

I've played PC's with low scores, nothing special, yet somehow they ended up on a task that might not save the world, but it made them heroes.

Basically, you play this game to be someone else, to escape from your normal world, you know it, I know it.... I really don't think it matters where you came from!

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On a side note, not really related, but I played a Drow Mage once, very evil, she was obsessed with becoming a Vampire...

She ended up killing the whole party (two other Drow and an Orc) with a Fireball because they "Annoyed" her, not heroic, not what should happen in most games...
Still, it was a hell of a lot of fun!

Isn't what this is supposed to be? Fun?

Some people enjoy role playing born to be heroes, some people like playing normal people saving the world..

Some people just wanna have fun and explore personal interaction....

[Serian]

After all who wants to play a normal person? Or even worse who wants to play a Bad Guy?

I have actually had players do both. While not the stuff of every adventure, sometimes it can be fun playing the other side (not necessarily *evil*, but the people on the other side of the conflict from the usual PC stance ... the "bad guys"). Running a group of 0-level sorts can have its entertainment value, too. (I have my own homebrew methods of dealing with 0-level sorts.)
It is not the stuff of the usual high fantasy, and not something that a group would generally play as a main storyline character set, but as a side diversion, it is worth playing.