Potions for cleric/mage/thief??

[garhkal]

Over on DF, in an old thread on 'do you allow the temp levels a fighter gains from drinking a heroism potion to act as a buffer for level draining'.. Someone mentioned that he has potions of devotion that work in a similar manner for priests and ones for mages and thieves too.

However, one of the things he said that makes me scratch my head, is that drinking that devition potion, not only gives the cleric a higher thac0/hp/saves (as per what his new level would be temporarily), but BONUS spells, higher level spell casting and turning undead..

Now i can somewhat understand the 'what spells you have are now cast at the higher level', and the turn undead side, but NOT the potion granting bonus spells..


So if YOU were to make up potions similar to Heroism, for the cleric, mage and thief, what would YOU have it grant?

[JadedDM]

I see the logic in it, though. A Potion of Heroism temporarily increases the level of a fighter, so a version for other classes would also increase their levels. And spellcasting would be part of that. It makes sense that if a cleric suddenly and temporarily gained several levels, they would acquire more spell slots with it. The problem would be, I would assume those spell slots would be blank. And by the time the cleric prays to fill them, the potion would probably have worn off by that point. Unless you are playing an edition that lets clerics cast spontaneously. That could solve that problem.

[garhkal]

Thing is, the fighter just FIGHTS better. He doesn't gain any new skills, weapon slots, special maneuvers or the like.. He just gains a HP boost
Thac0 boost
Save boost

So why would one for clerics/mages give those 3
AND additional spells
higher spell casting effect
greater turning of undead (clerics)
etc?

[Billy_Buttcheese]

Thing is, the fighter just FIGHTS better. He doesn't gain any new skills, weapon slots, special maneuvers or the like.. He just gains a HP boost
Thac0 boost
Save boost

So why would one for clerics/mages give those 3
AND additional spells
higher spell casting effect
greater turning of undead (clerics)
etc?

G,
Sounds like you kinda answered your own question. I agree, it wouldn't add any new skills, just temporarily enhance/improve those already possessed. For mage's I might allow maximum damage to spell effects, if desired. Same with clerics, say maximum HP recovery on a cure spell or similar. Thieving abilities would be commensurate with temporarily gained levels, or increased backstabbing damage, etc. The thing to remember here is that the gain is neither permanent nor even that long lasting, so ultimately, I don't envision it as being a serious game changer. I mean, after all, it's just a potion. Think of it this way, a potion of invisibility doesn't make a thief any better, just harder to detect. A simple temporary enhancement to her practiced skills. Hope this helps.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I'd say you first have to decide just what a potion of heroism does or is doing. Is it actually increasing the life energy of the person imbibing it, or simply boosting their abilities to act at that level. The 1E DMG (pg. 126) (being more precise than the 2E DMG) refers to it as:

"...gives the imbiber a temporary increase in life energy levels"'

and then goes on to say:

"When the potion is quaffed, the individual fights as if he or she were at the experience level bestowed by the magic of the elixir."

So it depends on how you interpret what the potion does.

If the potion is merely enhancing the PC's ability to fight and defend himself, then I'd say the potion doesn't count if level drains come into play - the fighter who is originally 5th level and then imbibes a potion of heroism (thus making him 7th level) and is subsequently touched by a vampire loses 2 levels from his original 5 and is now 3rd level, but would fight as a 6th level fighter due to the effects of the potion until it wears off. After that, he's now 3rd level. The level drain is draining his actual life force, and the potion is not actual life force - it just enhances his ability to act as if he were higher level.

If you consider that the potion actually increases his life force (perhaps if forms some sort of physical link to the Positive Material Plane), then a level drain in this case would be taken from the 2 levels granted by the potion. So in this case, the fighter who is originally 5th level and then imbibes a potion of heroism (thus making him 7th level) and is subsequently touched by a vampire loses 2 levels from his enhanced 7th level due to the potion, and he is now his normal 5th level.

Alternately, I can see ruling that the potion is magically enhancing that connection to the Positive Material Plane for the duration of the potion's effects, so any touch by the vampire would reduce his enhanced level by 2 for that round alone, but not in subsequent rounds (if the vampire doesn't touch him in the following round) as the potion continues to "feed" him new life force. In this case, the vampire would be leeching off the energy of the potion, not the PC. A second drain in the same round would then either reduce the potion's effects by an additional round, or could be taken from the fighter's actual level, depending how the DM wanted to do it.

Personally, I don't like the second approach. The first one, on the other hand, is pretty rough. So I'd probably go with my suggestion for a third approach, if it ever came up.

For the cleric, I agree mainly with Billy. It lasts only (at max) a little over a hour (80 minutes) with an average time of 6 hours. Not a game breaker. However, while I would allow the cleric or wizard to cast spells as if he were the level granted by the potion, I would not in any case allow the cleric or wizard to cast spells he can't cast at his normal, pre-potion level. Those classes have to study for and learn spells or have access to them, so the potion would not magically bestow new spells on them. In other words, a 3rd level wizard who drinks the potion and becomes 6th level would not be able to cast fireball, although he would be able to cast burning hands doing 1d3 + 12 damage instead of 1d3 + 6 dam. He'd get 3 magic missiles instead of 2, etc. Same for the cleric.

When calculating the chance of spell failure when casting from a scroll, I'd use the wizard's potion-enhanced level to determine the chance of spell failure. So for example, our 3rd level wizard, if he tried casting fireball off a scroll, would have a 15% chance of spell failure and (if it fails) a 95% chance of total failure with a 5% chance of a reverse or harmful effect. If, however, he drank the potion, he would be casting as a 6th level caster and could cast fireball off a scroll with no chance of spell failure.

Well, unless it was a cursed scroll.

[garhkal]

Alternately, I can see ruling that the potion is magically enhancing that connection to the Positive Material Plane for the duration of the potion's effects, so any touch by the vampire would reduce his enhanced level by 2 for that round alone, but not in subsequent rounds (if the vampire doesn't touch him in the following round) as the potion continues to "feed" him new life force. In this case, the vampire would be leeching off the energy of the potion, not the PC. A second drain in the same round would then either reduce the potion's effects by an additional round, or could be taken from the fighter's actual level, depending how the DM wanted to do it.

?

That's giving a massive bonus to the potions if it just makes level loss no only come off the potion, BUT its also reset back the following round..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

True, that's why I would rule that the first drain comes off the potion, then subsequent drains come off the normal levels of the victim. I wouldn't rule it the following way, but I can see the argument for it...

The potion, while in effect, is giving the imbiber a link to the Positive Material Plane and thus is boosting his life energy level. Since it continues to do so every round for several hours, each round in which the victim is touched by a level draining undead, the undead is simply draining off the excess positive energy being given to the victim by the power of the potion. So it never really affects the actual level of the victim.

It makes sense to me, but I wouldn't allow it because it's a simple potion and doing it that way effectively renders the imbiber immune to life draining undead for the better part of a day.

[garhkal]

What of the level given by having an Ioun stone?? Would the stone get 'drained' first?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Good question. Hmmm. i guess yeah, I'd treat it like the potion. It might be best though, if the first drain depleted the potion or the ioun stone.