PC dies. What does replacement come in at??

[garhkal]

Still not fond of the half-xp method, because like I said before, at higher levels it turns the new PC into a henchman. Fighters gain followers led by a 5th, 6th, or 7th level fighter, so to me making the 10th, 11th or 12th level character who dies be replaced by a character of the same level as a follower reduces that character to follower status.

Many games i have played in, ran for, or heard of have it where players take over a henchman when a pc dies.. So if they are ok with taking over a half XP henchman, why would they be not ok making up a flat out new pc At that henchman's level?
AND with the linear XP chart, by the time say an 8th level pc has earned enough to get to 9th, a 4th level pc has earned enough to get him up to 7th maybe even 8th...

[Cole]

OK. This is to see what generally folks do here (different than over on DF that is) about players who have a character die..

Does the replacement come in at say 50% or 75% of their former (now dead) pc's XP?
1 level lower than they were?
1st level?
One level (or two) under the remaining group's lowest character?
Something else??

Typically with me it's BOOM, start over. However if the party is desperate and they need that level of PC badly (regardless of party average level) I'll let them start a new PC at 3rd level and make them pay me back the XP.

*EDIT

Now I went back and read all your comments... lol. Now I know why they call me the butthole DM.

I personally believe the ultimate punishment is DEATH. This isn't a video game, and to me it's not about being fair. Your PC is unique (just like a real life), there is NO reward in death and there is NO poor me the rest of the party is 14th level and now I'm dead so I get a new PC without earning it. YOU DIE, YOU'RE DEAD! END OF STORY

You can now either make a 1st level PC and play solo and earn your way back up the pipeline or you can go home and wait for this party to finish their deeds and continue on with a new low level party another time.

[garhkal]

Wow. someone harsher than me!

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Cole wrote:

I personally believe the ultimate punishment is DEATH. This isn't a video game, and to me it's not about being fair. Your PC is unique (just like a real life), there is NO reward in death and there is NO poor me the rest of the party is 14th level and now I'm dead so I get a new PC without earning it. YOU DIE, YOU'RE DEAD! END OF STORY

You can now either make a 1st level PC and play solo and earn your way back up the pipeline or you can go home and wait for this party to finish their deeds and continue on with a new low level party another time.

I agree totally on the first part. I can be pretty cold when it comes to PC death. If the PCs can both afford a resurrection or raise dead spell and if they can find a priest within the timeline and if they can convince him to cast it (and it's usually gonna cost them a lot more than just a monetary payment!), then sure, I'll let them get raised. It's part of the game. However, I have - more than once - ruled that a party cleric who tried to raise another party member who was not working in the interests of the cleric's god could not do so. Oh, he prayed. He cast the spell, yes he did. Needless to say, the spell did not work. And the cleric got reprimanded by his god and had to atone for trying to give the gift of restored life to an "unworthy". Players freaked the first time, but as I explained to them, the cleric's relationship with his god far supersedes his relationship with his fellow party members, no matter how close they are. Overall, surviving, dying and perhaps getting raised are all problems for the players to deal with.

But the second part is where I differ. There's simply no workable way to bring a 1st level character into a party of 12th or 14th level PCs. Playing solo won't work because the character will be gaining levels even as the higher level PCs do, so he'll always be hopelessly behind. Even if the new PC reaches 3rd level, the rest of the party will have gone up to 13th or 15th level. Just not ever gonna work.

And there is only so much time free to game - running a secondary campaign just to get one PC up to speed (despite the fact that he'll still lag hopelessly far behind) is a wasted effort.

As I said before, I would never want to play (and I've never known anyone who would) a 1st level character who goes out adventuring with a 12th or 14th level party...

"Ok, Newbie - you wait behind and guard the horses. Don't let them run away. And if a sparrow attacks you, just yell for help and we'll come rescue you before it kills you."

That's sorta how it would play.

[garhkal]

I agree totally on the first part. I can be pretty cold when it comes to PC death. If the PCs can both afford a resurrection or raise dead spell and if they can find a priest within the timeline and if they can convince him to cast it (and it's usually gonna cost them a lot more than just a monetary payment!), then sure, I'll let them get raised. It's part of the game. However, I have - more than once - ruled that a party cleric who tried to raise another party member who was not working in the interests of the cleric's god could not do so. Oh, he prayed. He cast the spell, yes he did. Needless to say, the spell did not work. And the cleric got reprimanded by his god and had to atone for trying to give the gift of restored life to an "unworthy". Players freaked the first time, but as I explained to them, the cleric's relationship with his god far supersedes his relationship with his fellow party members, no matter how close they are. Overall, surviving, dying and perhaps getting raised are all problems for the players to deal with.

Unless he walks around with Raise dead memorized, if a priest pc tried to memorize it to raise someone in the party who was NOT of the faith, he wouldn't get it memorized.. If he's already got it in memory though, the god won't stop him casting it. BUT he will show displeasure other ways.....

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Why wouldn't the god be able to deny the use of the spell if the cleric has already memorized it though? The god can always rescind his blessings, including the granting of spells. I can't picture a god allowing a cleric to raise a person who belongs to the church of a rival or enemy. The god might even strip all spellcasting ability from the cleric if he's pissed off enough!

[lanir]

SO in essence you are playing a computer game with save points. Which is how i see it, when everyone has exactly teh same xp, regardless of which pc they play...

A computer game save point resets the story. I don't do that.

It also makes it meaningless to worry about even HAVING raise dead and similar spells, if the new pc comes in exactly the same as the old..

Frankly I have never had a raise dead spell show up in a game. So in my experience those spells are a meaningless option because they're not available. The point to them if the PCs are high enough level to cast or acquire them is that someone could continue playing the game with the stories and connections they've worked for.

Those things play a meaningful role in my game so it's a real advantage to keep them even without sentimental reasons. You may need a more mechanical deterrent if your games focus more on combat and you think your players would otherwise be fine with dying a lot. I mentioned that earlier, sorry if it wasn't clear.

[garhkal]

Why wouldn't the god be able to deny the use of the spell if the cleric has already memorized it though? The god can always rescind his blessings, including the granting of spells. I can't picture a god allowing a cleric to raise a person who belongs to the church of a rival or enemy. The god might even strip all spellcasting ability from the cleric if he's pissed off enough!

In most every resource i have read for 1 and 2e, the gods can't change/stop you Casting a spell you already have memorised, but CAN (and do) withhold or change what spells you GET to memorize..

Frankly I have never had a raise dead spell show up in a game. So in my experience those spells are a meaningless option because they're not available. The point to them if the PCs are high enough level to cast or acquire them is that someone could continue playing the game with the stories and connections they've worked for.

Maybe the reason you don't see raise dead get used is that your players don't see a need for it.
Why waste time, and go through the hastle in game, to track down a priest who can cast it, lose a point of con and all the cash it would take, as well as the risk of perma dying, when you can just roll up a new PC at exactly the same point...

[lanir]

Maybe the reason you don't see raise dead get used is that your players don't see a need for it.
Why waste time, and go through the hastle in game, to track down a priest who can cast it, lose a point of con and all the cash it would take, as well as the risk of perma dying, when you can just roll up a new PC at exactly the same point...

That's not it. I just said they weren't available as an option. That precludes picking them as a choice. Really honestly. Not what you keep thinking at all.

Mostly the games I played in would end before or soon after anyone could even cast raise dead. And if no one had the levels to cast it we didn't have the gold to pay to get it done either.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

In most every resource i have read for 1 and 2e, the gods can't change/stop you Casting a spell you already have memorised, but CAN (and do) withhold or change what spells you GET to memorize..

I've been trying to locate where it was written about this, because I always forget locations of obscure things. But does it say anywhere specifically that a god cannot deny a spell already granted? To me, that would emasculate the god granting the spell. I can't recall reading that anywhere, only references to denying spells.

[garhkal]

Actually after saying it, i decided to check the priest handbook for 2e, and there it DOES mention

Inappropriate Weapon and Armor Use

If a priest violates his order's restrictions on weapon and armor use, the god will punish him for it. There are two different types of violation of this restriction, and a different punishment for each.
If the priest deliberately violates the restriction because he wants to (for instance, if he puts on a set of metal armor when he isn't supposed to), this is a willful disobedience and makes the god very angry. He immediately does 2-12 (2d6) points of damage to the priest and takes away all the spells he granted to the priest today, and doesn't let the priest have any more for 1-6 (1d6) days. Even then, the priest must undergo rituals of purification and undertake an act of atonement if he's to have spells again

But that was the ONLY thing i could find..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I checked the 1E Deities & Demigods and 2E Legends & Lore, nothing concrete there either. L&L does mention denying powers and spells to clerics, but nothing about whether that includes already-memorized spells. The way I look at it, the gods are virtually all-powerful (at least by human standards) and just because a god grants a priest the ability to use a power or cast a spell doesn't imply that the god is duty-bound to allow the mere mortal to use that power against the interests of the gods. Imagine a druid who decides to set fire to a major forest, or a cleric of a god of war (like Ares) who tries to heal or raise enemies who have attacked a temple of Ares. I just can't picture a god being held hostage, so to speak, simply because a mortal has chanted the proper prayers.

It's funny, I always prefer making up details about stuff like this myself, and tend not to use many of the Complete Fighters/Wizards/Clerics/Etc handbooks, but they do come in handy at times, especially in a pinch! I like the part you posted. It mentions two types of restrictions but you only posted one. Would you post the other one? I'd love to see what it says. Can't find my copy of the handbook.

[TigerStripedDog]

A point of order on Henchmen. Henchmen are generally (but not always) the same class as their PC - or at least they will have one of the classes represented by the PC. I generally start Henchmen off at a lower level, and then advance them forward at half of the XP that the characters earn (or less depending upon their involvement).

Anyway, the point is that the Henchmen are a part of the group, and I generally expect the PC's to treat Henchmen no differently than they treat PC's. After all, from the character's perspective there is no difference. In fact, many PC's should be more attached to their Henchmen than to the other party members.

IF Henchmen like this are present, I typically encourage the dead player to play on of the Henchman - preferably one who was following their fallen PC. It makes for an easy transition.

Tiger

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

It's a good use of henchmen and I've used that method plenty of times before. Thing is, it only works if the henchman being turned into a PC is of high enough level to compete with the other PCs.

[garhkal]

I checked the 1E Deities & Demigods and 2E Legends & Lore, nothing concrete there either. L&L does mention denying powers and spells to clerics, but nothing about whether that includes already-memorized spells. The way I look at it, the gods are virtually all-powerful (at least by human standards) and just because a god grants a priest the ability to use a power or cast a spell doesn't imply that the god is duty-bound to allow the mere mortal to use that power against the interests of the gods. Imagine a druid who decides to set fire to a major forest, or a cleric of a god of war (like Ares) who tries to heal or raise enemies who have attacked a temple of Ares. I just can't picture a god being held hostage, so to speak, simply because a mortal has chanted the proper prayers.

It's funny, I always prefer making up details about stuff like this myself, and tend not to use many of the Complete Fighters/Wizards/Clerics/Etc handbooks, but they do come in handy at times, especially in a pinch! I like the part you posted. It mentions two types of restrictions but you only posted one. Would you post the other one? I'd love to see what it says. Can't find my copy of the handbook.

Here it is

If the priest violates the restriction for the best of reasons (for instance, if a gargoyle is strangling his friend, and he must use a forbidden weapon in order to be able to harm the creature), the god does 1-3 (1d3) points of damage to the priest (after the fight is done) and, if the priest does not undertake a ritual of purification at his earliest opportunity, will take away the priest's spells on the next day.

Then you have

Betrayal of Goals

If the priest deliberately violates the goals of the god, then he's in real trouble. For instance, if a priest of the god of war advocates peace when war is in the offing, or if a priest of the god of love tells young lovers to wise up and forget about romance, then the god will definitely be offended.
The first time this happens, the god will give the priest an unmistakable warning. This could be a heart attack, costing 50% of the priest's current hit points. It could be a portentous destruction of a statue of the god while the priest is present. It could be an earthquake or other warning. The warning doesn't have to be immediately after the betrayal, but will be soon after.
The second time this happens, the god will appear to the priest. It doesn't have to be in person, right then; it might be in a dream, the night following the betrayal. The god will sternly ask the character his motives and order him to return to proper worship.
The third time this happens, the god will immediately reduce the character to 1 hit point and change his character class. The priest will become an ordinary fighter at an experience level two lower than the priest's level (minimum first level); his normal hit point total and possessions will be unaffected. Until the character undergoes a severe ritual of atonement, the god will despise the character and plague him with little ills, diseases, and enemies. Once the character atones for the deed, the god forgives him . . . but the character will still be a fighter.
Sometimes, a god might deliberately confront the character with a test of the character's faith. For example: Part of the god's worship demands that anyone who tramples his sacred flowers be blinded. Then, the god befuddles the priest's wife or daughter, and that character stumbles across the sacred flowers where only the priest can see it. If he conceals the sin, he's punished. If, regretfully, he prepares to carry out the punishment, the god will be pleased. The god might interrupt the punishment, or wait until it has been carried out and then restore sight to the priest's loved one.

And lastly

When Gods Bestow Spells

Another effect of the fact that priests are servants of their gods is this: The god doesn't have to give his priest the spells the priest wants.
In most situations, when the priest prays for his spells, he gets the ones he desires. But if the god and DM wish, he could get different spells on some occasions.
There are two usual causes for this to happen:
If the god is displeased with the priest for some minor infraction, he might give the priest spells which dictate the priests' actions for the day. A fighting-priest might emerge from his meditation with only healing spells on hand, for instance, a clear sign that the god wants him to act in a supporting role today.
Or, if the god knows of a specific opponent that the priest will be fighting today, he might give the priest spells appropriate to defeating that enemy.
In neither case will the god send a telegram explaining why he's done what he's done. The priest has to accept what the god hands him that day, and has to do so without knowing why.

A point of order on Henchmen. Henchmen are generally (but not always) the same class as their PC - or at least they will have one of the classes represented by the PC. I generally start Henchmen off at a lower level, and then advance them forward at half of the XP that the characters earn (or less depending upon their involvement).

Where are you getting that henchmen are generally the same class as their controlling pc from?

It's a good use of henchmen and I've used that method plenty of times before. Thing is, it only works if the henchman being turned into a PC is of high enough level to compete with the other PCs.

So if say the party's all ave l7, and the hench is l4, is that iyo too far away to 'compete' with the PCs?