As the name of this thread suggests this is how i see combat in D&D.
i have heard people, time and time again say that the combat in most games is stale and not realistic. "why would i only make one attack in a six second period while i let my opponent get in a strike?" well you arent...whenever i think about my attacks in D&D i dont think of that one dice roll that i make as the only time i am swinging my sword or throwing a punch, combat is a full exchange of strikes flourishes and parries. But that roll signifies how well you fought in that six seconds, did you overwhelm your opponent with precise and brutal strikes? or did you drop out of the tempo and get hit yourself?
i also think damage rolls are taken to literally, i percieve HP as...
Your body's actual capacity for injury+your fatigue+plus your inner will to fight.
this system allows the DM to have an attack miss a target and still cause damage! (in the context of the story the attack missed but in game mechanics it was still a hit, no cheating!)
This also makes sense of ONE thing that has been bugging me, for the longest time i couldnt understand how a warlord in 4th edition could heal you with the force of his personality. But instead he is just bolstering your morale and restoring your will to fight.
....wow...i rambled for like...ever
so, what do you think? do you guys agree with me? or do you have your own theories?
How i see combat
Moderator: Stik
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Wizard_of_Wumbo
- Freeman
- Posts: 119
- Favorite D&D Edition: 2nd Edition
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How i see combat
indeed...<br>
HP-- going back to Basic D&D-- have always represented an amorphous mix of flesh, blood, will and luck, but it seems like that explanation has always run counter to what the system is telling us, that 8 points of damage is 8 points of actual damage. I think that the HP system is a poor system for modeling health (although it's a popular one, in both tabletop and computer games), and calling it "damage plus something" is sort of a nod towards verisimilitude-- that to a real person, getting stabbed in the chest will ruin your whole day, but to a D&D character it barely qualifies as a wound.
To the attacker, it's all the same. You roll to hit, if you hit you roll damage, you add your modifiers and at the end of it you deal 8 points of damage to someone. Depending on what you're attacking, that can mean anything. If it's a 1st level commoner, you've dropped them, they're likely dying, it was a truly vicious blow. If it's a 2nd level Fighter, you dealt them grave wound but they're still up and the fight is not over. If it's a 10th level Fighter, you nicked an eyebrow, or there's a single drop of blood running down from a scratch.
(The other side of this is the full Power Attack, x3 crit that does 80+ points of damage. You've grievously wounded the 10th level Fighter, whereas the 1st level commoner is just and indistinct pink mist gently floating away on the summer breeze.)
Saying that someone got stabbed in the luck is just mechanically unsatisfying. I think this is one of the areas of the rules where the less we think about it, the better it works. D&D combat makes perfect sense in the context of D&D combat, and it doesn't have to make sense anywhere else. (There are other systems that do better jobs of modeling other types of combats, but D&D works for what it is.)
4e reminds me of 1e in that its mechanical connection to the in-game reality is tenuous at best. I know my group has pretty much given up trying to explain how some things work in the game, and the way the various powers work (particularly push/pull/slides) we discuss combat tactics at the table in a way that we didn't in earlier editions-- that is, during combat, we will have conversations as players about what our various actions should be which would have been frowned upon in previous edition games.
The long and the short of it is, it works however we say it works. If you have an explanation that works for you, go with it. Game mechanics are a lot like animatronics-- when they've got their "skins" on they make very convincing dinosaurs, you peel away the foam rubber and it's just a bunch of brushed metal and gears. The illusion is important, in other words.
To the attacker, it's all the same. You roll to hit, if you hit you roll damage, you add your modifiers and at the end of it you deal 8 points of damage to someone. Depending on what you're attacking, that can mean anything. If it's a 1st level commoner, you've dropped them, they're likely dying, it was a truly vicious blow. If it's a 2nd level Fighter, you dealt them grave wound but they're still up and the fight is not over. If it's a 10th level Fighter, you nicked an eyebrow, or there's a single drop of blood running down from a scratch.
(The other side of this is the full Power Attack, x3 crit that does 80+ points of damage. You've grievously wounded the 10th level Fighter, whereas the 1st level commoner is just and indistinct pink mist gently floating away on the summer breeze.)
Saying that someone got stabbed in the luck is just mechanically unsatisfying. I think this is one of the areas of the rules where the less we think about it, the better it works. D&D combat makes perfect sense in the context of D&D combat, and it doesn't have to make sense anywhere else. (There are other systems that do better jobs of modeling other types of combats, but D&D works for what it is.)
4e reminds me of 1e in that its mechanical connection to the in-game reality is tenuous at best. I know my group has pretty much given up trying to explain how some things work in the game, and the way the various powers work (particularly push/pull/slides) we discuss combat tactics at the table in a way that we didn't in earlier editions-- that is, during combat, we will have conversations as players about what our various actions should be which would have been frowned upon in previous edition games.
The long and the short of it is, it works however we say it works. If you have an explanation that works for you, go with it. Game mechanics are a lot like animatronics-- when they've got their "skins" on they make very convincing dinosaurs, you peel away the foam rubber and it's just a bunch of brushed metal and gears. The illusion is important, in other words.
I know I've posted this in other threads here on this page, but it applies here, so I'll say it again.
D&D is not intended to simulate reality. It is intended to simulate heroic fantasy. The abstract combat system and the hit point are an extension of this.
Look at it this way: there is a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Indiana Jones gets into a lengthy fist fight with a huge Nazi aircraft mechanic. During that fight, Indy gets hit more than a few times in the face. A bit later in the film, we see him nursing his injuries, but they are minor. No broken bones, no major swelling, no concussions. This is fantasy.
By way of contrast, I give you a guy I knew in college, who was attacked on the street and was punched three times in the face. He suffered a concussion and a broken cheekbone and had to spend three days in the hospital for observation. This is reality.
In the real world a single arrow can kill you. So can a single knife wound. But if your PC was as fragile as that, the game would be unplayable, so the rules make the PC tougher than reality would indicate by granting additional hit points above and beyond what the toughness of their physical body would provide.
A seventh-level fighter may have more hit points than an elephant, and although this means he can survive more arrow hits than an elephant, it does not mean his body is physically tougher.
It is also worth noting that the average 0-level NPC has very few hit points, and CAN be killed by a single arrow or knife wound. They don't have the benefit of the additional hit points that come along with being a hero.
D&D is not intended to simulate reality. It is intended to simulate heroic fantasy. The abstract combat system and the hit point are an extension of this.
Look at it this way: there is a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Indiana Jones gets into a lengthy fist fight with a huge Nazi aircraft mechanic. During that fight, Indy gets hit more than a few times in the face. A bit later in the film, we see him nursing his injuries, but they are minor. No broken bones, no major swelling, no concussions. This is fantasy.
By way of contrast, I give you a guy I knew in college, who was attacked on the street and was punched three times in the face. He suffered a concussion and a broken cheekbone and had to spend three days in the hospital for observation. This is reality.
In the real world a single arrow can kill you. So can a single knife wound. But if your PC was as fragile as that, the game would be unplayable, so the rules make the PC tougher than reality would indicate by granting additional hit points above and beyond what the toughness of their physical body would provide.
A seventh-level fighter may have more hit points than an elephant, and although this means he can survive more arrow hits than an elephant, it does not mean his body is physically tougher.
It is also worth noting that the average 0-level NPC has very few hit points, and CAN be killed by a single arrow or knife wound. They don't have the benefit of the additional hit points that come along with being a hero.
"No matter where you go, there you are."
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Wizard_of_Wumbo
- Freeman
- Posts: 119
- Favorite D&D Edition: 2nd Edition
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i fully agree with both of you, however i see some things a little differently. Take that level 7 fighter and pit him against a few archers, so the archers launch some arrow s at him for a total of...12 damage, he deflects most of the arrows with his shield as others fly by. But one lone arrow strikes him, even though that lone arrow didn't cause 12 damage but the stress caused by all those people shooting at him and the energy it took to block along with that one actually hitting him amounted to 12 damage.
Yes, that mofo is badass for taking an arrow in the chest but he is a hero and it is fantasy, I just think that most damage is taken to literally. Although if an attack would put you at 0 HP or lower i always say it hits (can really bleed to death because you are stressed)
Yes, that mofo is badass for taking an arrow in the chest but he is a hero and it is fantasy, I just think that most damage is taken to literally. Although if an attack would put you at 0 HP or lower i always say it hits (can really bleed to death because you are stressed)
indeed...<br>
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Crimson-Kobold
- Peddler
- Posts: 267
Feh! I for one like games that make PCs nice and squishable 
Hitpoints are a bit of a strange area for me. On one hand, I think that having HP is pretty vital to a RPG. But conversly, in games where you can end up with excessively high HP, it becomes more of a chore then anything else. You end up with two meat shields beating on each other.
One solution that I've taken a liking to is some of the massive damages rules from say, D20 Modern. Damage exceeds an amount determined by the characters stats (usually constitution or stamina), and they have to make a roll to not fall to the hit.
It allows for characters, in D20 Modern, to have a decent HP pool, but that a well placed hit can incap, or even kill you.
Barring those hits, damage can be assumed to be near misses, grazing hits, etc...
Hitpoints are a bit of a strange area for me. On one hand, I think that having HP is pretty vital to a RPG. But conversly, in games where you can end up with excessively high HP, it becomes more of a chore then anything else. You end up with two meat shields beating on each other.
One solution that I've taken a liking to is some of the massive damages rules from say, D20 Modern. Damage exceeds an amount determined by the characters stats (usually constitution or stamina), and they have to make a roll to not fall to the hit.
It allows for characters, in D20 Modern, to have a decent HP pool, but that a well placed hit can incap, or even kill you.
Barring those hits, damage can be assumed to be near misses, grazing hits, etc...
The Kobold gonna kobold.
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greenknight
- Vagabond
- Posts: 74
Re: How i see combat
That's not really all that bad. It's much worse when you think that in earlier editions you could have 1 attack per minute. Which sometimes had a good chance of missing, so you might wind up with a single hit every 3 minutes or so (potentially just one hit per 20 minutes).Wizard_of_Wumbo wrote:"why would i only make one attack in a six second period while i let my opponent get in a strike?"
The thing is, those attacks do scale up. With a 3e character, you could end up making 8 attacks in those 6 seconds, or even 9 if you're a Monk using Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting. That's pretty good, really.
Hitpoints are a bit weird, IMO. The problem I have with them is actually the Cure X Wounds spells. If you're a 1st level Wizard, a Cure Light Wounds spell cast by a 1st level Cleric will cure around 5 - 6 hitpoint, probably taking you from 1hp to maximum hitpoints. If the Wizard has 6 hitpoints (at the high end for a 1st level Wizard), that's more than 80% of the character's total hitpoints restored.i also think damage rolls are taken to literally, i percieve HP as...
Your body's actual capacity for injury+your fatigue+plus your inner will to fight.
Now do the same thing to a Barbarian. Even a full 6 HP restoration represents less than 50% of the character's total HP. Advance that Barbarian to 10th level, and those 6 hp probably represent less than 10% of the character's total.
In that sense, 4e's approach (where the hitpoints restored scale with the character's maximum hitpoints) is one of the very few areas where that edition actually makes a bit more sense than the earlier editions.
The way I think of it, in 4e a character's true hitpoints equals their normal maximum hitpoints times their normal maximum healing surges. But they don't fight anywhere near that effectively normally because the wounds they take in battle are a real drain their will to fight. Then you have someone trained to bolster that will somehow (a Warlord, Cleric, Bard etc) give you a few encouraging words and it can help you muster your reserves (sometimes you even get a bit more than you could do for yourself). And once per battle, you can take a deep breath and steel your own own will (second wind).i couldnt understand how a warlord in 4th edition could heal you with the force of his personality. But instead he is just bolstering your morale and restoring your will to fight.
Once the battle is over, you can spend a bit of time resting and patching up your wounds, but what you're really doing is gathering up your reserves and regaining some of your will to fight.
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Rblademaster
- Vagabond
- Posts: 59
Re: How i see combat
awesome way to describe it, very insightfull. I hope thats the way the creators meant itgreenknight wrote: The way I think of it, in 4e a character's true hitpoints equals their normal maximum hitpoints times their normal maximum healing surges. But they don't fight anywhere near that effectively normally because the wounds they take in battle are a real drain their will to fight. Then you have someone trained to bolster that will somehow (a Warlord, Cleric, Bard etc) give you a few encouraging words and it can help you muster your reserves (sometimes you even get a bit more than you could do for yourself). And once per battle, you can take a deep breath and steel your own own will (second wind).
Once the battle is over, you can spend a bit of time resting and patching up your wounds, but what you're really doing is gathering up your reserves and regaining some of your will to fight.
"...not touching that with a 25 foot collapsable pole..."
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greenknight
- Vagabond
- Posts: 74
Yep - you definitely deserve the cred for stating it first.Wizard_of_Wumbo wrote:it makes feel good to know that whenever i say something in muddled and confusing speech greenknight will pop in and makes sense of everything.
That said, I've been going on about the way hitpoints are set up for years, in every version of D&D. While I think 4e's approach is better overall, it's still very messed up in many ways. I can't think of any game which uses character levels and hitpoints which go up with level where that isn't true, unfortunately.
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Crimson-Kobold
- Peddler
- Posts: 267
Hey, I've been crashing into posts all over the place haven't I?
I've never understood why you Hit Points go up when you increase in level, I'm glad they do of course, the whole idea of HP+Luck+Ability to keep going seems logical.
Heroes as stated aren't normal people, getting killed by a single arrow (possible at first level for anyone) isn't going to be much fun, you want your character to survive.
It would be nice to think "whoever" had this master plan about what it all meant, but surely its about survival, both of the character and the game, why would you buy more supplements if you died in the first adventure..?
I've never understood why you Hit Points go up when you increase in level, I'm glad they do of course, the whole idea of HP+Luck+Ability to keep going seems logical.
Heroes as stated aren't normal people, getting killed by a single arrow (possible at first level for anyone) isn't going to be much fun, you want your character to survive.
It would be nice to think "whoever" had this master plan about what it all meant, but surely its about survival, both of the character and the game, why would you buy more supplements if you died in the first adventure..?
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Crimson-Kobold
- Peddler
- Posts: 267
Well, there's clearly a balance to be struck.
On one hand, dying from a single hit makes the game pretty short. Yet, the more blows our characters are able to take, the more we need to suspend belief.
Myself, I prefer to lean towards the former, but not completely. The Massive Damage mechanic is a wonderful middle ground, more so if you base it off the characters stats, say like 3 times their con score.
That way you can have HP representing the characters overall health, accounting for nicks and minor cuts, while massive damage would be an event where the hero is stabbed in the gut by a sword, and is in critical condition.
As for when you reach that point of zero hit points, there are different ways to handle it. For example, one thing I did in a Star Wars game was have the player character who dropped to zero hitpoints recieve a broken arm, which seemed fitting for the manner he was injured in (being on a tank as it rammed into a building, the key word being ON, not IN
). Star Wars is actually kinda funky. They have cybernetics, but no rules to govern limb loss.
On one hand, dying from a single hit makes the game pretty short. Yet, the more blows our characters are able to take, the more we need to suspend belief.
Myself, I prefer to lean towards the former, but not completely. The Massive Damage mechanic is a wonderful middle ground, more so if you base it off the characters stats, say like 3 times their con score.
That way you can have HP representing the characters overall health, accounting for nicks and minor cuts, while massive damage would be an event where the hero is stabbed in the gut by a sword, and is in critical condition.
As for when you reach that point of zero hit points, there are different ways to handle it. For example, one thing I did in a Star Wars game was have the player character who dropped to zero hitpoints recieve a broken arm, which seemed fitting for the manner he was injured in (being on a tank as it rammed into a building, the key word being ON, not IN
). Star Wars is actually kinda funky. They have cybernetics, but no rules to govern limb loss.The Kobold gonna kobold.
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greenknight
- Vagabond
- Posts: 74
I'd prefer to replace the class/level system entirely with a skill based system. I keep bringing up Ars Magica, but that's because I think it does a lot of this stuff very well. Here's how it works in Ars Magica 3rd Ed:Ismaels-Legacy wrote:Well, what exactly would you like to see as far as HP and Levels? Something with wounds, disabilities, and overall damage thresholds?
Instead of assigning hitpoints, Ars Magica uses Body Levels, which are based on the size of the creature and don't change unless the creature becomes bigger or smaller. A typical Adult Human has 7 Body Levels (Unhurt, Hurt, Light Wounds, Medium Wounds, Heavy Wounds, Incapacitated, Dead). Smaller creatures have fewer body levels, and bigger creatures have more.
Once the character hits Light Wounds or worse, the character starts taking penalties to nearly all die rolls. The penalties are Light Wounds -1, Medium Wounds -3, Heavy Wounds -5. At Incapacitated, you can't take actions anymore, and at Dead you are dead (or dying). The rolls the penalty applies to includes attacks, defence, skill usage and spellcasting, so once you start taking damage it's probably time to get out of there if you can.