BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

[TristenC]

hmm... that's pretty horribly low..
I'll let you roll it once more

[BishGada]

I think it's the other fella Quasit. I haven't rolled mine yet...
This is for Kesha's Quasit: [3d8]=16

I wonder how the two Quasits will behave with each other...

[BishGada]

So, back to the backup character. The fighter/thief. In the complete book of humanoids there is a satyr which his max life span is 100+1d100. So the mean should be 150.
Will you allow it at all and if so can it dual class? It has +1 to dex and con so gives bonuses to thieving and HP.

[TristenC]

Satyr is fine, but would Multiclass. 150 is the average lifespan, not the max.
I think we would have to limit the 'pan pipe' ability to something like 3x/day. As-written it is a virtually infinite use of 60' radius Mass versions of Charm, Sleep and Cause Fear; which is utterly insane.

[BishGada]

Multiclass can't specialize so I think it is well underperforms dual-class.
Hmmm... well, I guess I won't have optimized character... I'll reconsider the race.

[TristenC]

There are lots of options. Just remember, that special abilities and versatility are natural trade-offs.
There is a balance

[BishGada]

Hi,
So I couldn't find any race relevant for dual classing.
I will go with human. Do you know/allow some variant human that can have +1 dex or +1 con or both? I read something about Coastal humans +1 dex -1 charisma...
Can go well with backstory of starting as fighter, becoming bodyguard in thieves guild and then shifting to thieving profession as the coastal humans are sailors who brawl a lot, and steal a lot during life

Character:
https://www.unseenservant.com/index.php ... et&id=9848

[BishGada]

One more thing, will you allow triple classing, something similar to 5e such as the character got to 13 level fighter, then 7 level mage then 13 level thief? Mainly to have spells that can improve fighter/thief abilities such as cat's grace and improved invisibility?

[TristenC]

I don't recall any human variants with those modifiers you're looking for. Where did you see coastal humans? Remember, at these levels and with the magic items small bonuses like that are almost irrelevant.

The 2e class entry says 'there is no limit to the number of classes a character can acquire, as long as he has the abilitiy scores".
so in the case you describe firstly would need 15 str, 17 int, 17 dex.

However, to be able to use the first classes normally he must be higher level in each new class per the normal dual class rules. So a lvl 13 fighter going to lvl 7 mage then level 13 would not be able to gain experience in an adventure if he used his fighter thaco, wep specialization or the like until he reaches lvl 14. The last class must be higher than any of the others

[BishGada]

Thanks.
1st, it does have effect to push stats above 18, as the mundane magical items are limited.
I saw suggestions for 2ed variant human here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/variant ... ns.561538/
What they say is that once you remove restrictions of multiclassing and max level from other races, then humans suck so they suggest some compensation I guess.

2nd, Got your point about the last level. I thought it could be equal to previous classes.

3rd, I'm not sure why I wanted to dual class to a thief? 1 backstab + traps handling... ?

I read a bit about fighter optimizations. Known is the darts specialization (6 per round +str + dex bonuses), but I read about archer kit and it said (with giving the source):

-Sylvan Elf - Get a +1 to Strength and Dex and -1 to Con and Charisma on top of the +1 to Dex and -1 to Con being an elf gets.

-Elves Racial ability - +1 to hit with a bow

-Strength of 18 gets you +1 to hit, +2 to damage while 18/00 is +3 to hit and +6 damage.

-Dexterity of 18 gets you +2 to hit. No bonuses for 18/00.

-Bow Specialization (Fighter's Handbook) pg 58 - You get +1 to hit and +2 to damage, but specializing in bows requires two slots. When firing at a range of 6-30 feet, you get an additional +2 to hit and if there is a enemy in sight, you can fire a shot off before initiative is rolled. (only fighters, paladins and rangers can take this.)

-Weapon Specialization (Player's Handbook) pg 52 - +1 to hit and +2 to damage. With a bow, you gain a point blank category (6-60 feet). In this range, you get +2 to attack. (Essentially the same as Bow Specializtion).

-Double-Arrow Shot (Complete book of Elves) pg 73 - Take a +1 penalty to initiative and -1 to hit & damage to fire two arrows at the same time. Both arrows can directed towards the same target.

-Archer Kit (Complete book of Elves) pg 84 - Can fire faster at 5/2 rather than 2/1. If you stand still, you can increase the rate of fire to 3/1. If you want to do a trick shot, you not only gain the usual bonus for specialization and high Dexterity but a +1 to attack for every 4 experience levels. If you care for your bow and arrow for more than a month (aka, they aren't new) then your arrows cause an additional 1hp in damage each attack.

-Enspelled Arrows - (Complete book of Elves) pg 105 - Fire Seeds: When the arrow strikes the target, the seeds detonate for 2d8 damage in a 10 foot radius. If the arrow hits an enemy, they take 1d4 damage as well as the 2d8 from the fire seed. The victim doesn't get a saving throw for half-damage. [You'll have to find this as you can't make them, maybe a druid can?]

-Bowyer/Fletcher, Crude Skill (Complete Barbarian's Handbook) - lets you make your own incendiary/poison arrows. 5 of them a day. (Incindiary arrows do 1 extra point of fire damage with a save vs. death magic, Poison Arrows do 2d4 damge with a save vs. poison to negate.

-Player's Handbook Bowyer/Fletcher - pg 58 - You can create your own bow that adds your Strength bonuses to attack and damage, the range is increased 10 yards as well.

-Weapon Specialization - pg 18 (Unearthed Arcana) - Point blank is still +2 to hit but now any damage you do against a target within point blank range does double damage (plus bonuses from strength).

-Double Specialization - pg 18 (Unearthed Arcana - Normally only melee fighters can take this but in the games I've played before, I was able to get this as a ranged fighter. Gives an additional +3 to hit and +3 to damage.

-Weapon Mastery (Skills & Powers) - You gain +2 attack on all ranges beyond point blank. At point blank range, you gain +3 attack and damage.

-Sheaf Arrows (Skills & Powers and I think in the PHB as well) - 1d8 damage and cost 3 silver for 6 instead of 3 silver for 12 like normal arrows.

-Quick Fire (Complete book of Elves) - Faster Rate of Fire. The first shot in a round is made at no penalty. The second shot is at -2. The third is at -4.The fourth is at -8, fifth shot penalty for it is -16. The archer gets off two shots on his first attack sequence. When all combatants have finished their first attacks, the archer may take the next two. Finally, after everyone has completed their second attacks, the archer may take one final shot. In such magically enhanced cases with haste, the first two shots are without penalty. The third and fourth are at -2. The fifth and sixth are at -4. The seventh is at -8. The eighth (and final) is at -16.

Your rate of fire is 5/2 (5 attacks every other round, 2 attacks every round [ex: your first barrage of arrows, you fire 2, next round, you fire 5, round after that, you fire 2 and so on]). In total, you'll be firing extra arrows per shot which is essentially 4 for the odd rounds and 10 for the even rounds.

With Quick Draw, you basically get another 8 shots with a slight penalty for the 8th (-4 as taken from the list below). Those 8 arrows are doubled up on each attack so realistically, that's another 16 arrows each doing near full damage (-1 damage from Double Arrow Shot).

This jumps up with haste but I'm not sure how by how much. I think it's an additional attack which would be 2 more arrows with Double Arrow Shot.

In Total, without haste, you'll be firing 12 arrows odd rounds and 34 arrows every even round.

To hit:
Elf +1
Strength 18 +1
Dexterity 18 +2
Bow Specialization +2 or +4 within 60 feet
Archer Kit +1 every 4 levels
Double Specicalization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Double Arrow Shot -1
Total: 14 (at point blank range and only counting the first level of the Archer Kit)


Damage:
Strength 18 +2
Bow Specialization +2
Archer Kit +1
Bowyer Fletcher, Crude +2d4
Weapon Specialization +2d8 (double the sheaf arrows damage)
Double Specialization +3
Weapon Mastery +3
Double Arrow Shot +1d8 (for the additional arrow)
Double Arrow Shot -1
Total: 10+2d4+2d8 (Min: 14, Max: 34)

Total damage:
Odd Rounds: 12 arrows, Min: 168 damage, Max: 408
Even Rounds: 34 arrows, Min: 476, Max: 1,156

So, do you think it is valid?


4th,
Also, in Spell & Magic, that I believe you allow since Cat's grace is from there, there is the class Artificer. It allows to create temporary magical items.
Say I'll use it mainly to get magical arrows (to complete the archer against creature hit by magical weapons only, since it is not really understood if the bonuses stack to overcome resistance or not as in 5ed they claim the do and in 2nd ed there is a debate around it), this should be fast and cheap. (Since research is required only once...) I couldn't find XP value of simple arrows +1/+2/+3 while arrow of slaying (which is +3 and may slay by hit) costs 250XP.
It is also said that Artificier need a laboratory, but it doesn't say it is required for the actual creation. (The same it is needed for the extra spell slots but not for the actual use of them).
So: 1. Do you allow Artificier at all? 2. Will you allow mundane items creation on spot, say several dozen of +X arrows in a day in case I'll go with the archer? Storing some spells into objects?

5th,
I remember there was an item called scimitar of speed. I found references for it in several additions including the 2nd, but not it's XP value. It is similar to short sword of quickness from the complete book of magical items, but not the same. It adds 0.5 attacks per round.
What books do you support? (items, spells etc)

Thanks.

[TristenC]

Wow... that's a lot of stuff to go over.

1st point: not using custom variants from one-off sources for this game.

Regarding the bow thing:
Elven archer kit, etc with trick shots is fine.
-not using unearthed arcana stuff. no double specialization.
-making a high-strength bow is fine. Cost would need to be determined and paid from starting $ (they are pretty pricey)

The quick draw interpretation you have copied seems extremely flawed to me. Nowhere does it say 'quick draw doubles your attacks, or gives you 8 extra attacks' and i'm not sure why whoever wrote that said.
I'll be honest, trying to shoot 34 arrows in one round is utterly absurd.

The CboE does describe up to 5 shots in one round without magic enchancement, calling the 6th virtually impossible without magic. So in the case of the example from the book, the elf gets 2/round normally, so that is an additional 3 shots in a round, all but 1 with penalties.
If you have a normal shot speed of 3 per round then I'll say it's fair to fire 3+3 = 6 shots. But each shot after the first still comes with a penalty.
If hasted, the penalties stack every other shot instead of every shot, as described,

Not sure why they said minor penalties only apply on the 8th shot.

The quoted person also talks about double shot. I'm going to say you can't combine double-shot in the same attack round as quick-draw. Double shot is fime, and probably a more reliable (fewer penalties) way to increase your shots/round. Just not in combination with quick-draw.

4th: Artificer class itself is fine. Lab is required for any special creations so would be needed to be created before the adventure.
I'm confused about how this would fit for that character though. Are you now propposing an Arificer/Fighter multiclass elf? That would also eliminate your normal wep specialization as only single-class fighters can specialize.

5th:
Yeah, Scimitar of Speed is a good one. It is in the DMG and Complete Book of Magic items. basically gives you 1 extra attack/melee round and that attack is taken at the start of the round (i.e. you always go first with 1 attack, then the rest of your attacks land wherever your normal initiative dictates). It is fantastic for interrupting casters.

Xp cost is listed in the item description, and dependent on magical bonus.
+1 SoS is 2500 xp.
+2 SoS is 3,000 xp.

[BishGada]

Hi,
About artificer I thought having it as dual class. Fighter->Artificer->Thief. Or maybe Fighter->Thief->Artificer.
But if during combat the artificer can't store spells in item or create items, well, I'm not sure I understand the class benefit. Is it just for downtime play and increasing the number of magical desired items between games?

About weapon mastery levels it is in Player Options combat and tactics. I thought it is allowed as it also include the ambidexterity proficiency which I remembered as allowed.

In any case I didn't think to be elf but could humans be archers with bow tricks as well? (lose the racial +1 for bows?)

[TristenC]

If the character is dual classing then it isn't an elf and those trick shots go out the window. The bow tricks elves get are because it is such a deep cultural thing and they spend decades honing their skills. it's an elves only option, I'm afraid.

Yes, it is in player's option Skill and Tactics, but i am not including everything from the Player's option series. There are some things in there that are in direct opposition to other rules.

Ambidexterity is in the fighter's handbook. The player's option books incoporate tgings from almost all of the other splatbooks.

[BishGada]

OK. So one thing is left to consider. What would you say is the benefit of an Artificer in adventure?

[TristenC]

I've never seen one used in 2e, and i haven't really looked at them in a while. I'll glance over it later