WotL OOC Thread IV

[TristenC]

sooo... do the baaz seem inclined to help the party if we can get a way for them to cross? especially in light of the dragon saying he plans to kill everyone in town??

[JadedDM]

The baaz are magically engineered soldiers, hatched and bred to follow orders. And their leadership is dead. Some might fight out of self-preservation, but I imagine most will either flee or just stare in awe at the whole thing. Those that would fight will likely be uncoordinated.

[TristenC]

just curious. the reaaon i asked was because you mentiined specifically that the dragon-breath fire cut them off from aiding the party. likely to think they'd follow magnus?

[JadedDM]

It's certainly possible. With Tethys dead, both Magnus and the high priestess would be the next thing closest to a leader the army would have right now.

[JadedDM]

Wow, actually did some damage on him. Not bad for the first round.

Now that the game is ending, I've been doing some thinking about the next one. I'm having second thoughts on the whole 'all mage party' idea. Partly because there seems a lack of enthusiasm toward it, but also because every time I bring it up at the various D&D forums I visit, looking for ideas and feedback, people tend to be pretty down on it. "You can't run an all-mage game, the party won't be properly balanced!" And I'm like, yeah, that's the point. The party would have to think carefully and be clever to make up for that.

But then it reminds me of my defenses of this game. "Yeah, it's super bleak and depressing. That's the point." And I don't know. Maybe I experiment too much on these things? Maybe I focus too much on trying something different, over something fun?

So instead, I was thinking of something a little more traditional. Ten year time skip, over at Southern Ergoth. It's a land divided, shared by ogres, humans and elves (both natives and refugees) and none of them really get along. The geography is very diverse (forests, mountains, swamps, coastlands, plains, savannah grasslands). Lots of potential plothooks with the political landscape. The War of the Lance is over by this point, so no worry about Dragonarmies and such. I was thinking just put together a normal party and kind of sandbox it.

What do you all think? Which idea sounds better?

[HorizonsDream]

I'm a fan of the Southern Ergoth idea. It sounds like a little bit of a compromise between experimentation and a typical game. You get to explore a land that isn't typically explored in Dragonlance, but you also get to have a basic party with basic D&D stuff, if that make sense.

[TristenC]

i dont really see anything wrong with your mage-only party idea. sure it would be a challenge, and there would definitely have to be some magical compensation, but i think it would be an interesting experiment. the only issue i think would be that some people just dont like to play mages. finding the right group ofmplayers to do it would be the first thing. planet has some talented players for sure, but it is a small pool to draw from. additionally, i think a lot of people here are maxed out time-wise. in fact, i'm far overextended myself lately; otherwise i'd be interested in the mage-only game.

[Haahque]

Doing some quick math my average dpr against the dragon (ignoring things like dragon fear) is 0.45. Which means it would take him about 60 rounds and 120 arrows to do as much damage as magnus did to the dragon on turn 1. I really don't feel like strait up attacking the thing is a useful thing for me to be doing at this point.

While I'm not against the idea of a mage only party from a theoretical point of view, I think such an idea would take a certain level of mastery over the system on the player's side (knowing all of the weaknesses of an all mage party and how to overcome them) which is a level of mastery possibly a little beyond me for 2e (I could do it in 3.5 or 4 just fine ), as well as bit of preparation/considertion on the side of the DM (Maybe not take the party out to fight an at-proper-cr drow fight without warning, or other monsters that heavily counter magic users). I'm a bit on the fence as to if such an idea is a good one.

South Ergoth seems like a nice setting for an adventure.

[JadedDM]

You speak of rules mastery, and it's something I've been thinking about lately. Because I'm not sure whether I should run the next game in 2E or not.

I mean, 2E is what I know best. Most of the rules I know by heart, and don't even need to look it up. Plus, I've spent years house-ruling it to get it just right. But...it's so hard to find people to play it. Every year it seems to get harder to dredge up players.

Now 3E has so much information for Dragonlance. More material than 1E and 2E put together. Tons of unique feats and prestige classes and what have you, just for Dragonlance. And I have acquired quite a few of them. But while I know enough 3E to squeak by as a player, running a 3E game seems so daunting. It's so complex and has so many fiddly parts. It's overwhelming. Even with the slow pace of a play-by-post, I'm not at all confident I could pull it off.

Then there's 5E. Which I am still learning, but unlike 3E, I have some experience DMing it. (I am running a 5E game over on my site.) It's also fairly rules light, like 2E is, and very easy to grasp. But...there is no official Dragonlance updates for it. I'd have to translate everything myself, which could take years of work...or wait for Wizards to get around to it, which I'm doubtful will ever happen. (Dragonlance received no updates during 4E, and in fact, no new novels have even been published since 2010).

If I were equally skilled and experienced with all three, I'd probably go with 3E just for the wealth of material available for Dragonlance with it.

[BishGada]

I'd like the all mages game. I understand the drawbacks you mentioned about it and as for mastery, with my memory (or the lack of it) I'm novice in any system, but still this is an opportunity to do something unique and the challenge will spice it up, so I'm for it.

[TristenC]

Does William or Miriam seem more injured?

[JadedDM]

Of those two, I'd say Miriam is more slightly more injured.

[Haahque]

Searching for ways to not be useless in this encounter I noticed that the rules for Charge in the PHB make no mention of having to use a melee weapon or make a melee attack; and that it gives +2 to hit. I'm probably overlooking something; but if it's possible; an extra +2 to hit could triple Haahqae's usefulness in the combat alone. However; this does feel a bit exploit-y and not by what the rules mean even if it is RAW.

Second best option I was reading about is a sap manouver - If Haahqae already needs a 20 to hit; another -8 to hit doesn't make any difference; and getting up to 30% chance to KO the dragon means that he would have a chance; if very slim; of actually contributing to the combat. But... then I read that it doesn't work on large sized enemies, so scrap that idea.

Third is the idea of punching, which seems to be the same as sap with lower damage and lower KO chance, but is universally useful against all enemies. Perhaps Haahqae's best contribution is the chance to roll a 20 on his attack; and then have the dragon roll 2% or less on it's vs KO save; giving Haahqae a 0.1% chance of essentially winning the encounter for the group per round. Really, not great chances.

So fourth is the idea of using a called shot to bypass the dragon's armor; which sounds like the best option yet. I'm not sure exactly how the dragon's AC breakdown works, but I’d bet pretty well that the majority of the dragon’s AC comes from its scales and impenetrable hide; and that actually hitting the creature is fairly easy given it’s size and speed. (Some of it’s AC might come from dex). If Haahqae can attack a spot which only has +6 AC instead of -5 or whatever the dragon has, even taking into account the -4 penalty for a called shot; he would have a much higher chance at dealing damage then any combination of trying to abuse charge rules or backstab/flanking rules might allow him. There are warnings in the DMG that this might not be a “find the weakspot” monster; but I Haahqae can only hit the thing on a 20 in the best of cases; it’s worth a shot.

As for dragon weakspots; there’s my guesses (eyes, underbelly, inside of mouth, into wounds created by other people already seem like the 4 most likely spots), but that's not necessarily what Haahqae would know. Haahqae is pretty knowledgable (if not wise) and has studied histories that include dragons. The question is: Would Haahqae know enough about dragons through his studies of histories to have an idea of if dragons have weak spots that he might put an arrow into; and if they do; where he might want to aim?

[JadedDM]

Searching for ways to not be useless in this encounter I noticed that the rules for Charge in the PHB make no mention of having to use a melee weapon or make a melee attack; and that it gives +2 to hit. I'm probably overlooking something; but if it's possible; an extra +2 to hit could triple Haahqae's usefulness in the combat alone. However; this does feel a bit exploit-y and not by what the rules mean even if it is RAW.

Charging would not work for projectile weapons. The extra momentum would not help, which is why charging gives the attack bonus. Even if it did, you could only fire once, you'd lose all DEX bonuses to AC (and suffer an additional -1), and then you'd have to waste a turn running back to where you started so you could charge again.

Second best option I was reading about is a sap manouver - If Haahqae already needs a 20 to hit; another -8 to hit doesn't make any difference; and getting up to 30% chance to KO the dragon means that he would have a chance; if very slim; of actually contributing to the combat. But... then I read that it doesn't work on large sized enemies, so scrap that idea.

Plus, he'd have to first climb up the dragon to reach its head, which is larger than Haahqae's whole body.

Third is the idea of punching, which seems to be the same as sap with lower damage and lower KO chance, but is universally useful against all enemies. Perhaps Haahqae's best contribution is the chance to roll a 20 on his attack; and then have the dragon roll 2% or less on it's vs KO save; giving Haahqae a 0.1% chance of essentially winning the encounter for the group per round. Really, not great chances.

Again, he'd need to reach the dragon's head to even try. You can't knock someone out by punching their ankles.

So fourth is the idea of using a called shot to bypass the dragon's armor; which sounds like the best option yet. I'm not sure exactly how the dragon's AC breakdown works, but I’d bet pretty well that the majority of the dragon’s AC comes from its scales and impenetrable hide; and that actually hitting the creature is fairly easy given it’s size and speed. (Some of it’s AC might come from dex).

Yes, pretty much all of its AC comes from its scales, which get harder as the dragon ages. So when people 'miss' it's not that they hit air, it's just the attack isn't strong enough to penetrate the hide.

As for dragon weakspots; there’s my guesses (eyes, underbelly, inside of mouth, into wounds created by other people already seem like the 4 most likely spots), but that's not necessarily what Haahqae would know.

As far as I can tell, a dragon's underbelly is not any more vulnerable than the rest of it. But eyes, inside of mouth, and into wounds would all be viable targets. I'd be willing to treat them as AC 0 instead of AC -6 for purposes of hitting (AC 0 being the weakest AC a red dragon can have, when it's a hatchling). For inside of mouth, you'd need to wait for his mouth to open, like before breathing fire or something.

[TristenC]

how do you handle a cleric's prayer for divine intervention? lol.
0% chance? 1% or greater?

Grubnik is out of useful spells and has no weapon that can reach, so he hasnt much functionality atm.
The inly other thing i can think of for him is to sift through the ashes of Magnus and Tulbas to see if any magical item survived that he might use against the dragon.