WotL OOC Thread IV

[JadedDM]

We hit 50 pages, so I started a new thread. We can continue from here.

*He could have; by now, at least encountered some ancient languages so that he can begin studying them.

You'll have to remind me, but has he sought out any of these languages in the past? Or was he just expecting to run across them eventually? Which languages? There are three 'dead' languages in the setting that I know of, which are Nestari (ancient elven), Kolshet (ancient ogre) and Ergothian (ancient human). All three of these languages fell out of use by the Age of Might. (I'll also point out that even if he had access to these languages right now, he currently lacks the NWP slots to learn any of them.)

*I realize I was wildly off the mark on how affluent the characters in this campaign were going to be, but is developing his own lab the only way he could do this? The only other apparent way is to use Magnus's lab, which is much more dangerous and shrouded in time-shift purgatory.

According to the DMG, researching new spells takes time and money. For time, the minimum amount is two weeks per spell level. For money, he needs access to a wizard's lab and 100-1,000 STP per spell level for basic research costs. It states, "A wizard who lacks a laboratory must come up with the cost of assembling one...should be...perhaps 1,000 to 10,000 [STP]."

But even if he had the money to build a lab (where would he build it?) and the money to start researching right now, do you know what spells he would be researching right now? Keeping in mind he's only able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells, I'm not sure what he could come up with in that power range that would be of particular value to his goals.

While I understand the desire for downtime, I don't feel like it's appropriate for Haahqae's specific circumstances right now; he would not have downtime at a time like this!

I can understand that. But without the downtime, we'd run into problems. For instance, if I start the next chapter the very next day, Chris won't be able to post at all because his character will still be unconscious. I also started increasing the downtime because I didn't want this game to last another 10 years. War of the Lance is three years old and we haven't even reached winter yet. The occupation doesn't end until the spring. Without the increased downtime, it's going to be a loooooong time before we get there.

Besides that, but the other problem with Haahqae going on dangerous missions during the downtime is that everyone else is left waiting for him to finish what is essentially a dungeon crawl (guards, traps, etc.) before we can start up the new chapter.

It might help if you list some successes, because I sort of feel like he's just slowly bleeding out resources as the situation constantly gets harder for him with very little, if any, success.

Haahqae's successes? The mine job, the giant job, and the vault heist are all the big ones that stick out in my mind. Unless the metric for success you use is only 'everything went exactly as planned 100%.'

Certainly not the result I was hoping for after a string of previous failures when I thought I had a victory for once.

I agree, but the thing is, Haahqae assumed his actions would have no effect on others. He believed either he would succeed and there would be no consequences at all or he would fail and he would pay the consequences himself. Even now, as he's planning to find Ismene and bust her out of wherever she is being held, not once does he stop and think about how this might affect others. He doesn't think about what the army is going to do if a suspected terrorist in custody vanishes.

He though that if the army even discovered the theft in the first place, they would take no action at all. He didn't realize that the army would sooner scapegoat an innocent than admit they aren't in complete control.

If he never comes to terms with this, or simply decides he doesn't care who suffers as long as he gets what he wants, he will most likely continue to make the occupation worse in the long run.

However it is not my hope to roleplay it to the point where it drives Haahqae insane, suicidal or into depression.

Fair enough. But it also sounds like you are basically saying, overall, that your two choices are this or complete and total success. The other PCs are all facing similar failures, some far worse than Haahqae's (Grubnick not only failed to save Delharn, but he got a bunch of his people killed in the process, for instance). But none of them seem to be on the edge of insanity or suicide (Depression, sure. The whole occupation is pretty depressing, so that's fair).

But should he even be allowed to learn from his failures with such a low wisdom? Is that character development or bad roleplaying portraying my character poorly? Should I go back to roleplaying Haahqae as a foolish carefree gnome who just wishes to crack a joke, help others and persue his life quest without regards to the team composition or lasting implications before doing a mission? Would that be staying true to his character or ignoring his character development?

Ultimately, that's up to you. It's not my place to tell a player how they should or should not play their character.

In my own opinion, though, I think while ability scores should certainly influence a character's actions, they should not be a straitjacket that forces them a certain way. Because, that, to me, isn't really fair. To say that Haahqae is incapable of learning from his mistakes unless he employs multiple Wish spells is very limiting. It means character development is pretty much impossible. That doesn't sound very fun to me.

Of course, if you believe that turning the clock back and having Haahqae return to his older persona would make the game more fun for you, then obviously you should do that.

As I mentioned before I had a false impression of the campaign when I started it, it was "Some guy's going to run a play by post campaign and I'm joining, do you want to join too?" Sort of thing, I must have glossed over the details of it being a dark campaign with significantly more failure and hardship then success and accomplishment. Those false impressions were only reinforced when it started out like a typical campaign with readily available quests, lots of early loot and relatively easy XP.

I admit, War of the Lance has very much been an experiment. I first got the idea when I was reading up on Haven and learned that before the occupation, it had a population of 5k but 10k refugees living in a city. And I started to wonder what that would be like. And whether people would have been happy or upset when those 10k refugees were basically deported, but only because an evil regime took over.

The beginning of the game was much more like a traditional D&D game, with dungeons and monster slaying and looting chests, and so forth. Partly this was because in order to emphasize how different things would be under the occupation, I needed to show what they were like beforehand. But another reason was I quickly realized that in a game where the PCs could just go on adventures and earn coin, they wouldn't really care about the occupation. The PCs would basically be immune to the trials and troubles the citizens of Haven would be forced to endure. Would Kendra still have taken a job with the army if she could have just used her hundreds of steel coins to take care of her family instead? Would Arulia have struggled to keep her family safe if she could just buy them a mansion in the noble district? The occupation would have been a minor nuisance, at best, to adventurers. As long as they could still go on adventures and get rich that way, I wasn't sure they would even care that much.

(However, for those who are interested in a more traditional sort of D&D game, I am running Doom of Daggerdale over on my site. It's only just started, and we have four players, but the module would allow for up to two more, if anyone has the time to join another game and wants something a little more simpler. It's Forgotten Realms, though, not Dragonlance.)

On the flip side, I saw summoning a familiar as a great role-playing opportunity. There was a creature where I could converse with at any time and confide secrets in, giving endless roleplay opportunities between Haahqae, Miracle, Ismene and Arcane; however this didn't seem to be as fleshed out as I had hoped. With this one I'm not sure if you expect me to take the lead on speaking for her and her actions or if you want to use her as a new opportunity to have a character interact with Haahqae and react to him with a unique new perspective from a dm-player sort of arrangement.

Well, Miracle's consciousness is fairly new. She wasn't a sapient creature before she was summoned. These are all new ideas to her. Previously, she never thought of anything beyond eating, sleeping, pooping and mating. So sometimes I think about having her speak up, but then I start to question if she would even understand what was happening enough to comment on it.

We can say that Haahqae is teaching her about the world in the downtime, though, so she can become more 'worldly' in the future.

I'm curious, though, how did you plan on having Haahqae show Ismene his new familiar? Was he actually going to tell her he was a mage, admitting he had been lying to her this whole time? Or was he just going to claim she was a pet?

The journey is important; but I tend to consider the journey as a collection of adventures that pass or fail to further or accomplish minor players goals eventually working towards a major goal (or two)

Fair enough. But also consider, that surviving can be considered a goal, too, while living under a tyrannical dictatorship. Haahqae hasn't made as much progress in his own personal goals that he would like, but he's still alive (unlike Khush, Darga or Felran), he isn't struggling to make ends meet (like Arulia, Shima, Ne-Chanz or Grubnick), and he hasn't betrayed everything he believes in just to survive (like Kendra and Tulbas). So under that metric, I'd say he's quite successful so far.

Also, to Horizon and Tristen, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. Although if either of you have any grievances to air or advice to ask, as well, now is a good time.

[BishGada]

Hi,
1. Can I assume Tulbas and Selowen are still near Jinali?
2. Did Burzan Reana Yvvette and Xylandya survived the bar scorch?

Thanks.

[JadedDM]

1. Can I assume Tulbas and Selowen are still near Jinali?

Yes. From what I recall, he had just finished tying her up when you disappeared.

2. Did Burzan Reana Yvvette and Xylandya survived the bar scorch?

Yes, none of them went into the bar at any point. The only people who died in the fire were the goblins inside. And none of them had ever been given names.

=============

Anyway, I got the XP and such up. There were a few level ups, but the only one who needs to update their character is Haahque--he has some thief skill points to distribute.

I went ahead and removed Arulia's stat block from the party line-up.

According to my calculations here, to get everyone back up to full health, it will take a full month (30 days) of downtime if Shima remains fairly active. If he stays in bed every day, it will take 10 days instead. Grubnick can just heal his own injuries pretty quickly. Ne-Chanz will take 16 days if he remains active or about 6 days if he stays in bed.

So the new chapter will begin somewhere between Autumn Dark 3rd and Autumn Dark 23rd. The former is probably better, as a whole month might be too big of a time skip. The masterwork studded leather that Kendra ordered will be ready on Autumn Dark 4th.

I'm not really sure what to set up for the next chapter. I know Haahqae is focused on finding Ismene and Tulbas is still at the Tower of Wayreth. Presumably Shima and Ne-Chanz will continue with the sewer. I'm not sure what Grubnick and Kendra are going to want to do, though.

[TristenC]

Try to find out if Delharn is being kept alive and seek to break him out. Otherwise, try to turn goblins against draconians (esp after the goblin bar got torched) and do as much damage in-general as possible.

[JadedDM]

With regard to the first thing, I think Elara already covered that. She said that they were taking Delharn to the temple and that he would be interrogated there.

[TristenC]

True, but i suppose i presumed the interrogation would be short and magical; and that he might be quickly killed after their questions. I don't really know whether or not i should expect him to survive the 'time skip', but Grubnick would not want to wait around wondering.

[JadedDM]

Alright, here's everyone's list of goals again, now updated. Feel free to add or modify to them.

Haahqae
1.) Romance Ismene
2.) [Redacted]
3.) Rescue Ismene
4.) Get revenge on Takhisis
5.) Build a magic lab
6.) Track down Xyleena and Yvette and get back his coin
7.) Stop Miriam from 'stealing' Ismene away
8.) Find out if Tulbas or Gobax were behind the elemental

Kendra
1.) Nurse Sadron back to health [COMPLETED]
2.) Free Norris

Tulbas
1.) Take and survive his Test.
2.) Kill Magnus
3.) Find his sister

Grubnick
1.) Start a revolution against the occupation
2.) Cultivate Tulbas' trust in Sirrion or maybe Gilean
3.) Capture Yvette and Xyleena and get his coin back
4.) Find Delharn

Ne-Chanz
1.) Find Yvette and Xyleena
2.) Figure out where to bury Felran

Shima
1.) Recover his weapons
2.) Clean out sewer
3.) Get on speaking terms with Arulia
4.) Help Ne-Chanz find the two female thieves
5.) Win the trust of Haahqae & Grubnick
6.) Remove the curse on himself

Now let's discuss downtime. Give me an idea of what you want your characters to do during it.

[BishGada]

OK, thanks.

Before Tulbas and Selowen will move on they will search Jinali's body. We saw her gather useful stuff and finding some. What can be useful for her will probably be useful for us.

About Tulbas goals, I think I can add now saving Selowen and opposing the rebellion. Also, not sure if it is a goal or not but I recall he did plan researching some low level spells, and I think he knows he need to get more powerful after his capture and torture and his lack of ability to stop Magnus from killing his uncle, so either finding 'special' spell or 'artifact' that will tilt the balance to his direction may be considered as goals too?

[Haahque]

You'll have to remind me, but has he sought out any of these languages in the past? Or was he just expecting to run across them eventually? Which languages? There are three 'dead' languages in the setting that I know of, which are Nestari (ancient elven), Kolshet (ancient ogre) and Ergothian (ancient human). All three of these languages fell out of use by the Age of Might. (I'll also point out that even if he had access to these languages right now, he currently lacks the NWP slots to learn any of them.)

While I don't think I explicitly stated that he was seeking out ancient languages and/or ancient knowledge (although I think I did send that as part of the character sheet when the campaign started). He did explicitly seek out quests which he thought had the highest chance of uncovering ancient secrets such as languages of the available choices.
- Demons in a mine? Well demons are an ancient evil -> maybe they have some ancient texts of unknown power! Can study those!
- He visited the library in one of the earlier chapters with the intent of digging up ancient texts to learn from them. He was turned away at the door
- His entire fascination with the Darewind and the cult was that he talked of an old god, which could lead to knowledge and/or texts pertaining to the old gods to learn from. Possibly in ancient languages.
- When the army took over the city, Haahqae borrowed a book from the temple to learn about ancient history, he would have been glad to find a book with passages in some older text with translations (or even without, if he could work towards the translating them).
- When Haahqae heard about the Belzorite job, he volunteered to help without reward, since it took him into a cultist base where secret magics (possibly ancient) were performed; and there was a high chance of him getting his hands on some old secrets in the form of text there.

Since then he hasn't been as focused on obtaining ancient power since he's been too depressed and/or has had more pressing priorities.

According to the DMG, researching new spells takes time and money. For time, the minimum amount is two weeks per spell level. For money, he needs access to a wizard's lab and 100-1,000 STP per spell level for basic research costs. It states, "A wizard who lacks a laboratory must come up with the cost of assembling one...should be...perhaps 1,000 to 10,000 [STP]."

But even if he had the money to build a lab (where would he build it?) and the money to start researching right now, do you know what spells he would be researching right now? Keeping in mind he's only able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells, I'm not sure what he could come up with in that power range that would be of particular value to his goals.

The short answer is yes. I sent you a list of spells he would be interested in reaserching in that PM that you seem to have forgotten a couple years ago; when he started looking towards researching spells. I'll dig up that PM and resend it to you.

I can understand that. But without the downtime, we'd run into problems. For instance, if I start the next chapter the very next day, Chris won't be able to post at all because his character will still be unconscious. I also started increasing the downtime because I didn't want this game to last another 10 years. War of the Lance is three years old and we haven't even reached winter yet. The occupation doesn't end until the spring. Without the increased downtime, it's going to be a loooooong time before we get there.

Besides that, but the other problem with Haahqae going on dangerous missions during the downtime is that everyone else is left waiting for him to finish what is essentially a dungeon crawl (guards, traps, etc.) before we can start up the new chapter.

These are the reasons to which I was referring when I said I understand your desire for a downtime. I expect you will go for a downtime due to these, and I cannot justify Haahqae NOT going on multiple dangerous missions during the downtime again, given the circumstances.

Haahqae's successes? The mine job, the giant job, and the vault heist are all the big ones that stick out in my mind. Unless the metric for success you use is only 'everything went exactly as planned 100%.'

While I agree the mine job and the giant job were great successes (so was Daxia); both of those occurred long before most other players joined the game; and those that were there shared the same level of success as Haahqae. The vault heist I'm really hesitant to call a success, since he failed at his main goals in the heist;
- To get money to give Ismene so that he could make up for the failure in the cultist base (This was the main goal)
- To acquire a familiar that would make him more of a mage, and give him a new avenue to socialize with Ismene.
- To find a new more sustainable source of income then performing at an inn that doesn't pay him for his work.

The show I consider a very minor success, but dedicating multiple chapters and investing hundreds of steel for a net gain of less then 20 steel isn't anything super overwhelming. (Did I end up calculating that it was a net gain of about 5 steel after considering the rent during the time he was planning it?)

I agree, but the thing is, Haahqae assumed his actions would have no effect on others. He believed either he would succeed and there would be no consequences at all or he would fail and he would pay the consequences himself. Even now, as he's planning to find Ismene and bust her out of wherever she is being held, not once does he stop and think about how this might affect others. He doesn't think about what the army is going to do if a suspected terrorist in custody vanishes.

He was also considering that he would succeed and still pay consequences himself. As for now, he's considered how this might effect others, but he really doesn't care. While I've played Haahqae as chaotic good sometimes; he does like to help out the poor and needy; but when it comes to matters like this, all he wants is what's best for Ismene. Haahqae is chaotic neutral when it comes down to it. As far as he knows, she's being detained and constantly tortured for information that she doesn't know, and if the alternative is hiding out in some cold abandoned building while the entire dragonarmy searches for them, then that's certainly a preferred outcome. Meanwhile how people react to hearing about a breakout? Perhaps that would give rebels hope that the dragonarmy isn't all-powerful. That's fine with him. Maybe the dragonarmy imposes worse restrictions on anything and everything? How many resources can they realistically devote to this that they aren't already with all their checkpoints, jails and taxes? He doesn't really care as long as Ismene is free.

Fair enough. But it also sounds like you are basically saying, overall, that your two choices are this or complete and total success. The other PCs are all facing similar failures, some far worse than Haahqae's (Grubnick not only failed to save Delharn, but he got a bunch of his people killed in the process, for instance). But none of them seem to be on the edge of insanity or suicide (Depression, sure. The whole occupation is pretty depressing, so that's fair).

First of all, I don't think Haahqae has the same mental fotitude of many of the other characters. (largely due to his wisdom, but also due to his personality/lifestyle). Secondly, the failures of others aren't as obviously self inflicted as Haahqae's. Grubnick's actions didn't change Dalharn's fate (as far as anyone knows so far); so what does he have to feel bad about about for trying to save him and failing? Tulbas is forced to work for a man he hates, but if he had done nothing, the same fate would have befallen him. While other characters suffer fates which are arguably worse then Haahqae's failure, they do not carry the same level of guilt as his does. I don't think Haahqae has the eperience/wisdom to think "oh well life sucks, but I got to live with it".

Ultimately, that's up to you. It's not my place to tell a player how they should or should not play their character. I think while ability scores should certainly influence a character's actions, they should not be a straitjacket that forces them a certain way.

That is good to hear. As a player more of the modern D&D titles, I don't have as much experience with an outright bad stat line like Haahqae has in this campaign. I did certainly enjoy roleplaying his old persona, but I don't think I can go back to that without an actual reason to. Certainly these weeks have scarred him like he's never been hurt before.

(However, for those who are interested in a more traditional sort of D&D game, I am running Doom of Daggerdale over on my site. It's only just started, and we have four players, but the module would allow for up to two more, if anyone has the time to join another game and wants something a little more simpler. It's Forgotten Realms, though, not Dragonlance.)

While this is something that sounds like fun, I feel like I shouldn't join a new game without dropping one right now; and I've grown somewhat attached to the little Haahqae character that I don't want to drop him or his game. So, maybe I'll join if one of my other games discontinues.

We can say that Haahqae is teaching her about the world in the downtime, though, so she can become more 'worldly' in the future.

I did try to work in Haahqae teaching her a few things during the chapter. It would make a lot of sense that he continues to teach her in the downtime.

I'm curious, though, how did you plan on having Haahqae show Ismene his new familiar? Was he actually going to tell her he was a mage, admitting he had been lying to her this whole time? Or was he just going to claim she was a pet?

That is a very interesting question and I'm not entirely sure if I have an answer for it. It was something I was looking forward to wrestling with before she got taken away. He's been slowly trusting her a little more after each adventure/conversation and been inching closer to telling her about his talent for the arcane, but he's also very cautious about it because he suspects that she'll force him to take the test and be a proper mage if he tells her.

Fair enough. But also consider, that surviving can be considered a goal, too, while living under a tyrannical dictatorship. Haahqae hasn't made as much progress in his own personal goals that he would like, but he's still alive (unlike Khush, Darga or Felran), he isn't struggling to make ends meet (like Arulia, Shima, Ne-Chanz or Grubnick), and he hasn't betrayed everything he believes in just to survive (like Kendra and Tulbas). So under that metric, I'd say he's quite successful so far.

Interesting viewpoint, and I'm unsure of IF he hasn't betrayed everything he believes in just to survive. He very well may have. I'll have to think about this.

[JadedDM]

About Tulbas goals, I think I can add now saving Selowen and opposing the rebellion.

Okay, I'll add those to the list.

Also, not sure if it is a goal or not but I recall he did plan researching some low level spells, and I think he knows he need to get more powerful after his capture and torture and his lack of ability to stop Magnus from killing his uncle, so either finding 'special' spell or 'artifact' that will tilt the balance to his direction may be considered as goals too?

I'll add 'research a new spell' to the list. The other part, though, is kind of vague. Does 'more powerful' just mean 'higher level'? Because he will gain new and stronger spells as he levels, naturally.

I'll dig up that PM and resend it to you.

I keep a record of all my PMs. If you can tell me the year you sent the PM, I can look it up. If you know the month it was sent, that will narrow my search down further.

The vault heist I'm really hesitant to call a success, since he failed at his main goals in the heist;
- To get money to give Ismene so that he could make up for the failure in the cultist base (This was the main goal)
- To acquire a familiar that would make him more of a mage, and give him a new avenue to socialize with Ismene.
- To find a new more sustainable source of income then performing at an inn that doesn't pay him for his work.

But he only took just enough coin to summon the familiar, didn't he? Also, you refer to breaking into the vault as a 'new...sustainable source of income.' Are you saying Haahqae planned on breaking in multiple time, whenever he needed some cash? Because he only got in the first time due to some amazing lucky rolls on your part. The idea of him making a routine out of it is...rather unlikely. Especially so now that they've beefed up their security.

While this is something that sounds like fun, I feel like I shouldn't join a new game without dropping one right now; and I've grown somewhat attached to the little Haahqae character that I don't want to drop him or his game. So, maybe I'll join if one of my other games discontinues.

I didn't realize you were in any other games, besides Missing Quill. Well, if you do find more free time, feel free to join up.

[Haahque]

I'll dig up that PM and resend it to you.

I keep a record of all my PMs. If you can tell me the year you sent the PM, I can look it up. If you know the month it was sent, that will narrow my search down further.

Unfortunately it appears that I lost the PM as the website only stores the latest 50 I sent out, however I do have a stored reply to the PM (pretty sure it was that one), which you replied on May 12th, 2015, so I'm guessing I sent the PM "spells" not too long before that.

But he only took just enough coin to summon the familiar, didn't he? Also, you refer to breaking into the vault as a 'new...sustainable source of income.' Are you saying Haahqae planned on breaking in multiple time, whenever he needed some cash? Because he only got in the first time due to some amazing lucky rolls on your part. The idea of him making a routine out of it is...rather unlikely. Especially so now that they've beefed up their security.

Yeah, he only took enough to summon the familiar, but with that accomplished he would have been more willing to use the steel he already had to pay Ismene (and Arulia) because he would have felt like he wasn't just slowly bleeding money and able to make significant amounts on his own.

As for the sustainable income; he isn't the brightest of gnomes, but he did figure he could hit other targets in the future for similar returns, or even go back and take a little more off the top if the theft wasn't discovered.

[JadedDM]

Unfortunately it appears that I lost the PM as the website only stores the latest 50 I sent out, however I do have a stored reply to the PM (pretty sure it was that one), which you replied on May 12th, 2015, so I'm guessing I sent the PM "spells" not too long before that.

Found it. I can resend it to you, if you want. But it doesn't include a list of spells. You asked about spell research (how much it costs, what it entails, etc.) and you asked if he could research spells higher level than he can cast (I said there was no rule against it that I could find, but noted it seemed like a waste of time and money to research spells you can't cast yet).

[BishGada]

By more powerful I mean he has very slim chances to survive on his own ability. He needs to gear up.
About Special power / artifact I can give as an example the idea (that failed) he had in the past with the Belzorites to research their transformation process and use it to achieve magic resistance. Something like that.

It also occurred to me that to find his sister, although natural goal in his condition, it is almost impossible to achieve and if he will pursue it he will most probably need to leave the party. (Not that there is a party he is really belong to!!! but I keep hoping )
Maybe, like in real life goals, it can be break down to few smaller goals, like receiving news about her, or about anyone from his home village and so on. getting leads.

In the same direction, Killing Magnus came as revenging Raetmal's murder, but after his anger lowers he will consider other paths regarding his uncle, maybe finding someone who knew him very well and can tell him stories about him. Then it is a bit like making him live longer a little bit. Also he might learn about some life goals Raetmal had and would continue them so even that he dead, his will will be done.

[TristenC]

Grubnick is ammending the following goals:
3.) Capture Yvette and Xyleena and get his coin back
4.) Find Delharn

To
3.) Find a way to neutralize the group that captured Delharn (lower priority than the next goal)
4.) Find a way to free Delharn if possible.

Adding:
5.) Keep his word to help Haahque rescue Ismene.


So Delharn is being held at the Temple and Ismene presumably by the Army?

[JadedDM]

By more powerful I mean he has very slim chances to survive on his own ability. He needs to gear up.

Well, if/when he takes his Test, and assuming he passes, that will be a big help in that area.

Grubnick is ammending the following goals:

Okay, updated.

So Delharn is being held at the Temple and Ismene presumably by the Army?

Right. Although where, specifically, Ismene is being held is unknown. I think Haahqae has some theories, though.