Moderator: JadedDM
How do you measure the 'progress' on this goal? What exactly did you originally foresee he would have accomplished by now, by third level? Knowing that would help put us both on the same page.Haahque wrote:So far in this game he's made almost no progresses -at all- on the goal he set out to do on day 1 of the campaign...he could have at least made some progress towards it, if small, by now.
I thought you were doing that on purpose, to be honest. That you were roleplaying his 3 WIS (constantly getting distracted, not thinking things through or considering the consequences of his actions, etc.).Haahque wrote:However, he's constantly being torn away from it by other things he considers important...
That's never stopped him before. He hired Yvette and Xyleena without even knowing their names or what they were capable of.Haahque wrote:He barely knows the other players so why would he entrust such confidential information to them?
To be clear, are you implying that I am deliberately scheming to make you fail in everything you do, and you are asking me to lighten up a bit? Because I can assure you that I am not doing anything of the kind.Haahque wrote:...however I would like to see some of his ideas actually pan out for a change, as opposed to going from disastrous failure to new problem that needs to be solved to new disastrous failure.
I'll be honest with you. A lot of your plans...are downright suicidal. Your plan to try and break into the mageware shop, for instance, had me very worried. Because the odds of you tripping a magical trap and being vaporized on the spot (even at full health your character only has 12 HP) were insanely high. That you were trying that not during the game itself, but during the downtime only had me more nervous. I kept imagining how it would feel to tell a player that they needed to roll up a new character because they died off-screen during a time skip. (Same deal when you wanted to try sneaking into the prefect's mansion while invisible and I kept dropping massive hints that the dragon would see you if you tried, because I didn't want your character to die during the downtime).Haahque wrote:I'm wondering if all my plans thus far were bad plans, and if so how to make better plans that can make progress towards his goals.
Looking back, Haahqae has made a little more progress then I thought, in that he's got some leads on learning about some people who he should research (Beldinas, Balzor, Fistandantilus, Takhisis); and that he has had some opportunity to research Balzor and Takhsis a little further, although he hasn't had much opportunity to glean useful information from such research.JadedDM wrote:How do you measure the 'progress' on this goal? What exactly did you originally foresee he would have accomplished by now, by third level? Knowing that would help put us both on the same page.Haahque wrote:So far in this game he's made almost no progresses -at all- on the goal he set out to do on day 1 of the campaign...he could have at least made some progress towards it, if small, by now.
Part of Haahqae's original character was that he was fairly prone to meet new people and try out new things, but he would always try and make them work towards his life quest indirectly or directly. Since I have shifted his efforts to being much more focused and on Ismene's rescue. Everything he has done since she was captured has been to free her.JadedDM wrote:I thought you were doing that on purpose, to be honest. That you were roleplaying his 3 WIS (constantly getting distracted, not thinking things through or considering the consequences of his actions, etc.).Haahque wrote:However, he's constantly being torn away from it by other things he considers important...
It has stopped him before; This goes back to the recent trend of him considering the consequences in response to being punished for not doing so earlier. The betrayal by the 4 minor villains is the reason why Haahqae stopped recruiting people for his adventures since then. For the show he only got help from Grubnick (when he figured out he absolutely needed someone to help, and had worked with Grubnick recently) and Tulbas (who is one of the few people Haahqae still trusts), although Tulbas didn't end up helping much. For the heist he didn't hire anyone because he didn't trust anyone with it; he didn't even tell Ismene!JadedDM wrote:That's never stopped him before. He hired Yvette and Xyleena without even knowing their names or what they were capable of.Haahque wrote:He barely knows the other players so why would he entrust such confidential information to them?
I don't even know. I don't think you're scheming against Haahqae to make whatever he does fail, but I am questioning if the tasks set before him are of a reasonable difficulty for a character of his power and a player of my skill level. I don't know if this means the tasks are too hard or if I'm playing very poorly or if it's just random happenstance that's been preventing him from having success (pretty much since the giant), or perhaps a combination of all three.JadedDM wrote:To be clear, are you implying that I am deliberately scheming to make you fail in everything you do, and you are asking me to lighten up a bit? Because I can assure you that I am not doing anything of the kind.Haahque wrote:...however I would like to see some of his ideas actually pan out for a change, as opposed to going from disastrous failure to new problem that needs to be solved to new disastrous failure.
Actually, that leads me to ask a broader question on that subject. All of these complaints about Haahqae's failures--are you blaming yourself as his player, the character (for his crippling WIS score and overall behavior) or me, the DM?
These two plans go very much with how hard Haahqae is working towards trying to free Ismene. He has less care for his own well being while she is in peril and I realize this. The other dangerous plan I can think of (the heist) was a calculated risk I was willing to take to end Haahqae's streak of failures (sort of?). He's growing more desperate and taking more risks as a result. While I understand the desire for downtime, I don't feel like it's appropriate for Haahqae's specific circumstances right now; he would not have downtime at a time like this! And that's a large part of why he tried to do so much (even dangerous things) during the last downtime. The other part is because I wanted to have something interesting to do when the chapter started. I think I would handle a character death better then you think I would handle a character death.JadedDM wrote:I'll be honest with you. A lot of your plans...are downright suicidal. Your plan to try and break into the mageware shop, for instance, had me very worried. Because the odds of you tripping a magical trap and being vaporized on the spot (even at full health your character only has 12 HP) were insanely high. That you were trying that not during the game itself, but during the downtime only had me more nervous. I kept imagining how it would feel to tell a player that they needed to roll up a new character because they died off-screen during a time skip. (Same deal when you wanted to try sneaking into the prefect's mansion while invisible and I kept dropping massive hints that the dragon would see you if you tried, because I didn't want your character to die during the downtime).Haahque wrote:I'm wondering if all my plans thus far were bad plans, and if so how to make better plans that can make progress towards his goals.
It might help if you list some successes, because I sort of feel like he's just slowly bleeding out resources as the situation constantly gets harder for him with very little, if any, success.JadedDM wrote:Now I recognize that this game is bleak and very difficult. That was the intention from the beginning. I wanted to explore what life would be like under the cruel thumb of the Dragonarmy during Haven's occupation. But I'll point out again, while Haahqae is upset that he can't earn enough coin to build a secret magic lab, there are other PCs who are just trying to scrape together enough coin to not starve to death. He's made a lot of mistakes, but he is by far the most proactive PC. He's had far more success than a lot of the others as a result. He doesn't sit around waiting for stuff to happen or for opportunities to drop into his lap. He goes out and makes them himself.
I feel like he was at this crossroads a couple chapters back; he was striving towards money for two purposes before he pulled off the heist. He wanted money to set up a secret magic lab and he wanted money to get a familiar to impress Ismene*. Each of which cost about as much money as he stole individually; so he had to choose between them when he got the money. As he chose the familiar; it indicates that he chose to progress his relationship with Ismene first (with the plan to get back to that life quest later). It was (and is) unclear of if he'll be able to aquire such a windfall again, and certainly even if he does, it will not be easy, meaning that decision was not an easy one to make (it wasn't). However, after he chose Ismene, she disappeared before he could even talk to her. A large part of feeling like having Ismene captured as a failure may come from that he chose Ismene over furthering his own goals, and that the venture was not a success in that it caused more problems to this effect then it solved. If an adventure in which he meticulously planned and overcame many dangerous obstacles to pull out an astounding success that was supposed to open up new opportunities to bring him closer to Ismene resulted in more problems then it solved; then it's rather disheartening; as if it doesn't matter what odds he overcomes; things are just going to get worse. Certainly not the result I was hoping for after a string of previous failures when I thought I had a victory for once.JadedDM wrote:There are consequences, though, as always. Haahqae is at a crossroads of sorts. All he cared about was getting money for his own agenda. He succeeded in that, too! But Ismene paid the price. Now he's conflicted, right? He got what he wanted, but he hurt someone else in the process. Now he has to choose. What's more important to him? I would have thought that would be a great roleplaying opportunity. Instead, you seem to have taken it as an unfair failure being inflicted upon you.
I'll agree that it was a roleplaying opportunity; and I hope I did it justice, especially in my first post in the chapter. However it is not my hope to roleplay it to the point where it drives Haahqae insane, suicidal or into depression. And this, compounded on the previous encounters make me wonder if I am roleplaying Haahqae well.JadedDM wrote:And that's what I mean, about maybe we're not on the same page. Why Horizon is the only one enjoying this game. Because she thinks a lot like I do on these matters. Remember what happened to Tulbas? He must now serve the man who murdered his beloved uncle in cold blood. I remember Horizon expressed jealousy that something so cool got to happen to BishGada's character.
And maybe that's where our wires are getting crossed. I didn't see Ismene's capture as a punishment on you, I saw it as an incredible roleplaying opportunity for you, as a player, to struggle with. I guess I assumed you would see it the same way, but perhaps not.
As I mentioned before I had a false impression of the campaign when I started it, it was "Some guy's going to run a play by post campaign and I'm joining, do you want to join too?" Sort of thing, I must have glossed over the details of it being a dark campaign with significantly more failure and hardship then success and accomplishment. Those false impressions were only reinforced when it started out like a typical campaign with readily available quests, lots of early loot and relatively easy XP.JadedDM wrote:Same deal with what happened to Gregeddin. How would he feel if he knew his actions caused other people to suffer, as well? Innocents, at that! Or the whole Delharn thing. I introduced him as a fanatic to contrast against Grubnick, who is far more moderate (Grubnick wants to avoid hurting people, for instance, while Delharn doesn't care). Now Delharn's fanaticism has gotten him captured. Will Grubnick become a fanatic himself now? Or will he become even more cautious after seeing the full power of the army?
That's what I meant when I said this game was about exploring life under the occupation. It isn't easy, and it forces the PCs to make difficult choices. Do they stick to their beliefs, do they sell out, do they resist even though the odds are horribly stacked against them?
I guess to put it in a much simpler way, you seem focused on reaching the destination, while I'm more interested in the journey itself. Maybe that's where the wires are getting crossed between DM and players.
