LSO OOC Thread III

[JadedDM]

Okay, chapter done. Arc done. I'll probably do updates after Christmas is over. Enjoy the holidays!

[Breila]

Happy holidays to everyone!

I loved the image of the half-orc amazon riding the orca into the sunset...

Ouragna will lend Esma to Kirrah for the time they are together, so that she learns to see to the needs of a lady. Once on the warship, she tells her to keep everyone away when she is studying or practising her spells. Does the girl show any interest in magic?

[spyguy1503]

Gallath would pick up his hawk and (oh crap I have a horse) his horse.

[Chris1234]

Naras thanks Val for her help, and Mist for the transportation adding that she's welcome to stay at the temple if she wishes, otherwsie bidding her a warm farewell and best wishes.
When the dwarf gets back to the temple she asks for a biefing - how everyone is, what's been happening, and how are the temple's finances.

[Nuke]

Val rides off into the sunset, happy to live in the wild with her best friend. She works on some additional commands initiated by high pitched whistles.

[BishGada]

Baeros would go to Mond and see that his family is safe, then will try to find how he can help against the League.

[Nuke]

Merry Christmas!

[JadedDM]

Now that Christmas is over, I wanted to talk about the third arc. Specifically...I don't think we should have one.

I've gone back and forth on this several times in the past year, but now that we're here I think it would be better to start fresh than try to continue with a third arc. I'll outline my reasoning below and we can discuss it.

First, there's time commitment. In the old days, when I ran my games in person or in a chatroom, for a party to reach this point, around 6th level or so, would take a year. However, play-by-post is far, far slower. It took us a year just to reach level 3, and then another 3 years to reach level 6. A third arc would end around level 8 (about 150,000 XP), and by my calculations it would take us somewhere between 6-8 years to finish it--and that's my most optimistic projection.

That's a hell of a commitment for anyone to make, even me. What's more, it's made me realize that long running games aren't very feasible in this sort of medium. It would actually be impossible to take a party from 1st level to 20th. I would literally die of old age first. Honestly, I've never run a game before that went past level 7, tops. Part of that is after a whole year, people would be eager to move on. It's been four years here, and I just cannot imagine sinking in another half decade or more.

But even if we're all willing to commit to such a long period of time to finish a third arc, there's also the matter of party unity. This has been something I've complained about since the first arc, and it has only grown worse, especially as the party itself has grown in size. During this arc, it got so bad that two of the PCs literally jumped ship and ran off on their own, forcing me to run two parallel games at the same time. Which is quite exhausting, let me assure you (especially when you are running multiple other games, as well).

The PCs have little to no connection to each other. They don't really interact with each other at all--those that bother interacting at all only do so with NPCs. You can see my point by picking two random PCs and trying to articulate their relationship to each other. While there are some exceptions, for the most part, it holds true. Like, Jocelyn and Val. Ouragana and Gallath. Baeros and Naras. Go ahead, try and sum up their relationships.

The PCs don't seem invested in each other or the main plot, so it's no wonder that some just wander off on their own. Even the ones who stick around don't seem to have any reason to do so. They're just tagging along. Even when asked why, they can offer nothing more substantial than a shrug.

And this is my concern. Even if I find a way to reunite the PCs after the three year downtime, what guarantee do I have that they'll stay together for the next 6-8 years?

But even if we're all willing to commit to such a long period of time to finish a third arc and are willing to retool our characters so that they have actual reasons/motivations to be in the party, there's also the matter of the game's theme falling away.

I set this game in the tropical islands of Octhania because the idea was it would be a swashbuckling adventure on the high seas. Pirates, merfolk, hurricanes, deserted islands, and so forth. Tridents instead of lances, cutlasses and sabres instead of short and long swords, etc..

For the most part, the original PCs stuck to that theme. But all of the people who came in during the second arc seemed to design characters that would be better suited to a more traditional, pseudo-European setting. We have characters who specialize in forest terrain, who own horses, and who wear and make metal armor. Val is the only one who can swim and Jocelyn and Ouragana are the only ones with seamanship skills. Originally the idea was that the party would one day acquire their own ship and have adventures on the high seas. But instead, they just hire NPCs to ferry them to and fro, and many seem to have no interest in ships or the sea at all.

The party feels fractured, with half of them being designed to function at sea and the other half not. Which means whichever setting we pick, half the party becomes fairly useless.

But even if we're all willing to commit to such a long period of time to finish a third arc and are willing to retool our characters so that they have actual reasons/motivations to be in the party, and even respec our characters to fit the setting, there's also the fact that...I don't really feel like this party has any more stories to tell. Certainly not enough to fill 6-8 years.

The third arc is meant to be about character development. But it feels like there's really not much left to explore there. Jocelyn learned to embrace the tenants of her faith. Ouragana has acquired some confidence. Gallath has tempered the hate festering within. I don't know, is there really that much left to cover? My original plan for the third arc was to come up with six different storylines to cycle through, one for each PC, that focused on their character development. Do you all feel like there's enough to build on to do that?

It might be possible to fix all of these issues, and maybe it's just the fatigue speaking, but I feel like it would be significantly easier to just start fresh. A new party, maybe all officers on the same ship. Have all of you work on them together, so we have a more coherent party. Put a higher emphasis on roleplaying and character development.

But what do you all think? Is it worth the time and effort to salvage things or would it be easier to just start anew?

[Chris1234]

Thank you for GMing so far.
If it's become a burden to you to continue doing so then it's best to stop.
If you choose to continue GMIng then I will play. Certainly am intrigued with the air genesai storyline.

[Breila]

I can understand everything you've written about. The party is really incoherent, and you had to run two parallel games for a very long time. I even feared that Ouragana's (in-character) decision to explore the prize ship would split the party once again... My impression (voiced by Ouragana) was that fighting the demons that threaten the world could finally be something that could glue the party together. Thank you for taking the game so far under such difficult circumstances.
I would love to continue playing Ouragana, especially since this is the first time I brought a character to a higher level. Mages only really become interesting then, especially if they're not fighter mages. At low levels, they're so vulnerable that staying alive is the greatest challenge. And that sucked confidence out of me and Ouragana.
I love the concept of the storm sorcerer in this setting. So if we start anew, I would choose to play another one.

[HorizonsDream]

I would start anew, myself.

[JadedDM]

I even feared that Ouragana's (in-character) decision to explore the prize ship would split the party once again...

No, that didn't bother me any. What Ouragana did was temporary and only involved walking a short distance away. I was more talking about having to create an entire new storyline out of whole cloth, with its own dungeons and enemies and such, and run it alongside the main story.

...the first time I brought a character to a higher level. Mages only really become interesting then, especially if they're not fighter mages.

I suppose we could make a new party at the same level as this one was, around 6. It means a longer character creation period, of course. And we'd have to remove the whole arc system for something more manageable. Level ups would be very slow, too (maybe one level up every couple of years, likely). But if everyone is okay with all of that, we can try it.

I'll admit I have little to no experience challenging a party of that level (and that size), so some encounters might be too strong or too weak while I work to re-calibrate them. (As I said before, I've never taken a party beyond level 7, so that's all new territory for me.)

[BishGada]

I'll go either way and would like to continue playing with the group.
I hope everyone enjoys the game(s) as much as me.

One thing I feel I must say: Don't overload yourself JadedDM. The game should be fun to everyone including you. If it becomes a burden, or some actions of us makes it too difficult or unpleasant to handle, just tell us and I assume we will have no problem to adjust the characters decision/behavior to help.

[Nuke]

Wow, that is a lot to take in. Looking back, it doesn't see like we have been at this for four whole years. That, in itself, is a huge compliment to both your style and efforts as a GM.

My comments, for what they are worth are as follows:

The PbP format is not real suited for extreme role playing, the delay in posting results in disjointed conversations. In face to face games, all that dialogue happens at a much faster pace. While the detailed player interaction is an important part of the game, it almost is relegated to a sideline activity. Real life plays a role here, I myself go through busy season where my time to commit to the 6 or 8 games I am involved in varies. The one off 'follows the leader' post do happen, not gonna lie there. I think part of the last party fracture was during the football season when I was otherwise occupied.

I feel the a more mechanical type of gaming fares better, with the GM pushing along the plot through lulls in the action. I know this is not your style so much Jaded, so perhaps a more focused group dropped into a more linear adventure would help. As levels increase, the difficulty in managing it also increases. In another game, we did a one-off at level ten, it took a year and a half. I suppose it depends on what you are looking for. Me, personally, I look for games where the GM is more mechanics orientated, moves things along and progresses through levels and loot. Levels one thru five should take a year or so, cranking through content with not so much focus on inter-character relationships. No offence intended, just the style I prefer in PbP given my RL time constraints, I find them more enjoyable. I always get a rush in the initial character generation and get excited with loot and EXP distribution more so than the quasi-romantic roleplaying.

Just like with Val, she was developed with the theme in mind, Amazon Warrior wielding a trident, riding a killer whale, garbed in shark-skin armor. Her social skills were limited, but did develop, but still the independence did not waiver. As you fed her more items and she progressed in power, she was fun to play, in battle, Aside from that she struggled to bond with the others, partially due to the non-violent nature of Ouragana. Just saying.

So, all that being said, I'd be willing to continue with a reset, provided we adjust the some of the expectations and more things along, or I can just bow out gracefully. I am not trying to impose my will the the rest of you, just trying to relate to what I feel works successfully in PbP.

I welcome comments, critiques and additional discussion here. But, finally I will add:

THANKS JADED!!!

[JadedDM]

I'm the exact opposite. 'Beer and pretzel' style dungeon crawlers, where the PCs are all 'murder-hobos' with no home, no family or friends and no backstory, is all fine and good for simple one-shot games or modules. But for a long-running campaign that spans years? It gets old really fast.

(That being said, if you really feel that way, Nuke, I have to say I'm very surprised you signed up for the Gontorian game then. I specifically advertised it as being heavy roleplay with lots of politics and intrigue.)

Another thing is that I only get as excited and interested in my games as much as the players do. If the players are really into it, I feed off that. But if they are barely participating, or just going through the motions, then all of the work I do for these games starts to feel more like a chore than something fun to do. So if the players tune out except in battle, if they only care about earning XP and treasure, it means they don't care about the NPCs, the setting, or the story. And those are the things that require the most amount of work to create. I mean, anyone can slap together a few dungeons and populate them with critters and treasure. But coming up with compelling, realistic characters or deep settings or rich storylines is a lot more work. If the players ignore all of that (even if they really enjoy my games otherwise), then...it makes me feel like I'm wasting my time even trying. And that is what leads me to burn out faster than anything else. In fact, I'd say that's my number one cause of burnout.

When I think back to all of my old games (I've been DMing since 1995), the stuff I remember most aren't the fights (mook, boss or otherwise) or solving puzzles or disarming traps, but interesting characters and big plot twists and cool settings.

This isn't to say I hate combat or leveling up and things like that. Obviously I'd be running the wrong system were that the case. But to me, that's just the bare skeleton of the game. The flesh and organs are world-building and roleplaying. That's what got me into D&D in the first place, when I was just a boy of 13.

So unfortunately, stripping the game of all of that, leaving only the bare bones of fighting and dungeon crawling and acquiring treasure and leveling up isn't possible for me. It would actually make the problem worse. I'd burn out even faster.