OOC Chat

[JadedDM]

I like this game...all of us have invested time into these characters and stopping now would be really bad.

See, that's what you all keep saying whenever I ask for feedback. But when all I hear is complaining (and not constructive criticism, but blaming me for things that go wrong because I'm not breaking the rules or fudging rolls to let you succeed), it makes me question why I spend so many hours working on this thing. Because I've invested more time in this game than the four of you combined. I'm not even using modules anymore, but coming up with everything from scratch save for the setting itself (while simultaneously running two additional games that are also made entirely from scratch, including the setting).

When I talk about ending the game, I don't mean it as some kind of threat. I just mean, if everyone is complaining so much, clearly we're not having fun. And if we're not having fun, why are we doing this again? If something is wrong, we need to try and fix it. If it can't be fixed, it's better to just move on.

Ok, first, how was I supposed to know the level of a Dragon?? Honestly?

Naturally, you wouldn't have. But isn't it common sense that a mere level 5 character is not going to be as tough as a dragon? Even without knowing the dragon's specific level, I would have, in your place, just assumed the dragon was 5-10 levels stronger.

Secondly, I guessed, I didn't know the spell used, locky doesnt have spell craft and to her it looked like a spell.

Wait, so are you arguing that this whole thing was in-character? That you deliberately had her make a mistake because you felt it was the more in character thing to do? That's fine, but then...why would you be surprised it didn't work and why would you complain I didn't fudge it for you?

What Jerrard was asking for was not to give us the answer, or just let us succeed everything, just accept that we are also playing this to have fun, hitting brick walls is not fun.

He probably should have just said that then. But I do accept that, and I'm the same way. I'm pouring hours of my life into this game each day because for fun, as well. I'm sure not getting paid for it (if only...if only...). And of course, hitting a brick wall isn't fun. Dying isn't fun. Losing isn't fun. Failing isn't fun. But these are parts of the game. Without them, then success and survival would mean nothing.

Remember the end of Pod-Caverns? The party was fighting the Shroom (the second time), and things weren't going well. People were dropping like flies, and it looked like hope might be lost. Then Locky hurled that bottle, that just happened to summon a pair of horses if broken, and she rolled a critical hit, thus crushing the Shroom in a hilarious and pretty epic way? Didn't that moment stand out to you? Wasn't it awesome? Now imagine if I told you that even if you had missed, or not thrown that bottle, there would have been a sudden cave-in in the next round, crushing the Shroom anyway? So it didn't even matter. Wouldn't that have completely invalidated the whole experience? That's why I don't do things like that.

Anyway, I wasn't going to say anything until after this chapter, but I have been thinking a lot about this game the past few months (actually, ever since the Malika/handless kender/Remove Curse incident). And trying to think of ways to retool it to make it better.

But if this is simply a matter of the players' style conflicting with the DM's style, I'm not sure what to do. I could change my style, sure. But then I'd stop having fun, get burned out, and wind up ending the game anyway.

If anyone has any suggestions, as always I'm open to hearing them. But regardless of what is decided and regardless of how this chapter ends, I will definitely be putting the game on a brief hiatus--a couple of weeks or so, while I retool things and try to see if I can figure out how to improve things.

[HorizonsDream]

Failing is part of the game. I've been in Jaded's games for I don't know how long now. He use to go really easy on his players. He would fudge rolls and change things because he wanted the players to succeed. Because of that though, it taught his players not to really THINK about things. We just assumed that we would make it through difficult situations not matter how horrible the plan was. He finally realized what he was doing, and he fixed that problem.

The characters can't always succeed. It is more real, and it actually makes for good character development if they do fail. I'm going to just take what happens to my character if something doesn't go as planned.

[Breila]

I guess we let ourselves being led astray by our character's "good natures", thinking there would be a solution to make the world the way we'd like it to have.
In modules, there is a set goal and generally a way to achieve it (sometimes to the point of railroading). Characters usually can find a way to right what is percieved as wrong (like killing the Shroom, or freeing the abducted wife of the Khan).
These open-ended games are different. To me, the introduction of the handless kender and the enchanted/emprisoned Malika felt at first like clues to what we characters were expected to do. That they were part of the environment and we characters were powerless to help the kender and Malika was not the innocent maiden to be rescued was a very big change.
Likewise, it seemed like we could and should correct the problem of the dimernesti attacking the ships for good by taking care of the dragon.

The way you are handling the situations now is certainly more realistic (if that can be said of anything in fantasy). But we go into a situation, perhaps a little foolishly, because we think there must be a way accessible to us that "solves" them, and the solution can be made up "on the go" as it was true while you were running modules.

Now, it seems that there is no specific "goal" in an adventure, and consequently no way to achieve it that we just have to find. Now we have to navigate through an unfamiliar world and are much more likely to encounter failure than before. In a module, you might die trying (like the TPK that happened in Relics), but you're unlikely to be just unable to do what you think you should do.

These are my thoughts on the matter, I hope it helps a little. I don't think we want to be coddled, but we want to know what is asked of the characters and have the feeling that they can succeed, and not run into dead ends whatever they try.

[JadedDM]

You kind of make it sound like I am arranging the game so it's not actually possible to succeed or even leave any kind of mark on the world. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The handless kender could have been saved; hell, the party even had a couple of ideas to pull it off successfully. They just chose not to exercise them and gave up. (For instance, they could have bought the kender; but that would have been costly, so they decided not to. They also could have broken into the place and rescued them, but for whatever reason, they chose not to.)

And yes, Malika was a subversion of expectations. I do use those sometimes. Like in Lost Souls, how the aarakocra turned out not to be evil monsters, but intelligent and good-aligned beings who just didn't understand they were 'stealing' animals. Sometimes things are not what they appear to be. A magic item might be cursed, something that appears evil might be good (or vice versa), and sometimes people lie and take advantage of others. (Of course, I always make sure not to always use subversions, lest the party's expectations reverse and they always expect to be tricked or betrayed.)

Also, not every adventure is equal in difficulty level, nor do they necessarily scale with the party. The Shroom nearly wiped out the whole party, while the evil Vizier went down in one round. Likewise, the Dimernesti/Dragon quest is meant to be very hard. I actually wasn't sure you'd even take it once you heard there was a dragon involved. You should keep in mind that just because a quest is available doesn't mean you are required to accept it. Sometimes they are very, very difficult (although when they are, the rewards for success are always quite high, as well).

At the end, you say you want to know what is expected of you. But nothing is. It is up to the party to decide where they want to take this game, and what they want to do. Why are we heading toward Silvanesti? Because that's what the party decided. Where are we going after that? I don't know--that's up to the party. Are we supposed to take this quest? How are we supposed to do this quest? There are no 'supposed to's' here. I am not railroading you, I am not leading you guys by the nose.

If the party fails to accomplish what they set out to do, it isn't because I stepped in to stop them. It's because they made a mistake (Remove Curse instead of Dispel Magic), they made a bad roll (just now with the dragon's cage) or they just gave up (the handless kender).

Besides, in my eyes, the only way you can truly fail in this game is to die (and even then, that is reversible). Nobody has died yet, which means that even if you fail your objectives, you can still learn from them. Maybe after the handless kender incident, the party realizes they can't save everyone. Or maybe they come to realize things are not as simple and easy as they like to think they are (a big theme in the handless kender quest was responsibility--what do you do with them once they are free? Just let them loose in the wild? How will they care for themselves? What if they get captured again? Etc. This happened once in one of my old games. The party thought of themselves as 'heroes' so they rescued a whole group of slaves. Then they just left them there to fend for themselves, dusting off their hands, and congratulating themselves on a job well done!)

Perhaps after the Malika incident, Jerrard learns to stop letting his pants dictate his actions. Maybe Babushka decides to try and adjust her sense motive (she was suspicious and rude to Imani, who turned out to be trustworthy, but welcoming and kind to Malika, who turned out to be manipulating the party).

I don't know how the dragon quest will turn out yet. It's entirely possible you'll all be killed, leaving Babushka the sole survivor of the party, ironically enough. Maybe you'll succeed wildly and get some of that dragon's horde. Maybe you'll succeed, but at a great cost. Whatever happens, I'm sure there will be great opportunities for character development.

Yeah, it stinks when you fail, but as I said--as long as you aren't perma-dead, you can still learn from it. Remember in Saltmarsh, how the party failed to defeat what's-his-name, the illusionist? Remember how much that incident changed Amon? How it pushed him to learn more about tactics and strategy, made him more of a leader--in hopes of avoiding something like that in the future?

Don't think of failures as a loss, but rather an opportunity for growth. Static characters who never learn from their mistakes will keep repeating them again and again, and that's just not fun for anyone.

[Jenara]

Lots of interesting points, simple fact is: I don't know what to do next.

Will think about it, and post later.

[Breila]

Jen sums it up nicely: We often feel lost.

[JadedDM]

I'm not entirely sure how to fix that.

[Jenara]

And that doesnt mean we need guiding, or hand holding, or things made easy... just... we need to think.

[Breila]

Letting the game rest for a while is probably not the worst idea. Jen and I are gaining experience with your more freeform game in Lost Souls. It's easier to do that with different characters. With Locky, Babushka and Jerrard, we kind of got into a routine that is no longer adequate now that the game setting has changed.

[JadedDM]

So should we go back to modifying modules, like with Pod-Caverns and Sarcophagus Legion?

[Breila]

This might be best for this party.

[Jenara]

Shame really, parts of the way we are playing is so much fun.

[Jenara]

Allow myself and Jerrard a day or so to think about what we will do, and we can resume, i hope thats ok with Horizon, she has her own little game, so at least she wont be deprived some gaming.

And it just appears we have to change our approach.

[JadedDM]

I'm sure Horizon doesn't mind, but doesn't she get to add input? You make it sound like everything has to be decided by you and Jerrard.

As for time, you have until the 10th, actually, as per the posting rules of this game (i.e., the three-day rule).

[Jenara]

No no I mean with what our characters IC were going to do!! Not what we do with the game.