BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

[BishGada]

One more spells for undead creation:
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Create_B ... est_Spell)

(https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Undeath_ ... est_Spell) - another way to more easily create undead but requires high level bane believers to be scarified.)

[BishGada]

Hi,
So I reached 7th level spells...

I wanted to ask specifically about astral spell...
It has no duration limit. It's either the priest decision, the astral body slain and then return immediately back, or the body on the prime material destroyed and then the priest dies.

But...
The priest can astral-ly travel anywhere on the prime plane, at any speed he desires with extra 7 people.

So, would you say it is possible for the whole group travel astral-ly through the maze, passing walls and not being in danger (since it's only their astral projection) and scout ahead large bulks of the dungeon? The only 'danger' is undead and even then it will just make the group return to their camp.

Also, beside creating undead and turning into undead (which I think there are very strong possibilities there that I'll discuss with you once I finish the research) I thought of using divination spells to get clues about how the sigils work and how to find them.

What do you think?

Thanks.

[TristenC]

The astral projection is fine but it sounds like you are mixing up the Ethereal and Astral planes. The Astral plane is nearly empty and is like a flat field covered in stars.

The 'Border Ethereal' edge of the ethereal plane is the one where you can see into the Prime Material plane and allows passage through solid objects but not creatures

[BishGada]

Thanks,
Well, they say you can travel anywhere on the prime material plane, as slow or fast as you wish, without forming a second body. So it can't be used as Teleport and even I got confused with going through objects on the ethereal plane, but you can one moment appear in front of a wall and the next behind it, so it works good enough for exploration.
If I understand you correctly it means I won't be able to meet and confront ethereal creatures by using astral plane, although since the astral plane "touches" all other planes, one could find the passage to the ethereal plane if one really wants to. (maybe chase shadows and ghosts?)

[BishGada]

BTW, I remember the statue room more or less... So I'll try to convince Styrius to get his dwarf down there and do some stone work

[TristenC]

Yeah, it's a little odd. So basically when you go into the astral plane you appear on this almost empty landscape then you have to go find colored pools where you can view into the prime material plane. Once you find one you can choose where on the PMP you look and if you want you can enter there astrally. But once you are astrally projected into the prime material you cant just move through solid matter. All the while you are connected by a silver cord

In the ethereal plane you basically move first to the "Border Ethereal" which is like the edge of the plane between the prime matereal and the deep ethereal planes. It is like walking around in a foggy shadow-reflection of the prime material. You start from where you were on the Prime and move around from there. You can pass through solid objects but not creatures, and you are not connected by the silver cord you are just -there-.

In the Deep Ethereal plane (which is a similarly empty and infinite expanse) there are basically tornadoes of Ether that will spit you out in the Astral plane. From the Astral plane you would find a colored pool into the Ethereal and it would spit you out in one of the tornado sites.

[BishGada]

Well, I guess being spit of randomly can be fun, but if I understand correctly, there are two relevant cases for our adventure:
1. Astrally project the group to the prime material plane, investigate the dungeon, return and only then go on with the adventure with much more information in our hands.
2. In case we meet ethereal creatures, we could go to the "Border Ethereal" and fight them there, maybe with better chances to win?

In any case if you think (1) is a legitimate possibility (I think it meets the description of the PHB and that's pretty much what this spell is meant to do, in addition to a train station between the planes), I think Ke'Sha will suggest it to the group and by tomorrow, this could be a possibility for a very unexpected change in the course of the adventure.

[TristenC]

Just keep in mind that Astrally, you are basically peeking through windows. And if you don't know where you are looking you'll have no way to know where it is on the prime. If you step astrally into the prime you are just a projection and so going into a room with closed doors you cant even open the door to get out. So you would not really get the chance to explore the dungeon.

If you go to the ethereal plane and the Border Ethereal, you would basically be able to travel through solid objects like doors and such to explore the dungeon; provided what you want to pass through isn't magically warded in such a way to prevent you.

The lvl 7 Priest spell "Plane Shift" can take you to the Ethereal plane, but you would need some way to return.

The Wizard spells "Teleport Without Error", "Gate", "Portal" or "Etherealness" (which Allikhain knows)


The Psionic ability "Dream Travel" temporarily can allow one to venture there as well

[BishGada]

Well, plane shift could work, but we need it twice.
Teleport with out error is only for the caster, so it won't work for the whole team.
Gate is level 9 for wizard and level 7 for priest, but in he description it says it only for some being to step through. If you allow all the company to jump through the gate back home without calling specific strong entity, that's nice. It also ages the caster by 5 years.
I didn't find the spell "portal" if you can refer me to the source it will be great since I could look for more spells from an allowed resource.
Etherealness maybe the exact answer for my goal. The only disadvantage compared to the way I understood Astral Spell is the time limit of 1h/level.
Dream Travel may be a means to return, but not to explore.

I'm not sure why "It is also possible to travel astrally anywhere in the Prime Material plane by means of the astral spell." doesn't allow exploration as done in the ethereal plane. The "windows" as far as I understand are when you want to actually enter another plane and materialize a body there.

Also, in Astral Spell if you do materialize on another plane, it says the silver cord is connecting the new body on the new plane to the body on the astral plane, and then if the body on the new plane is destroyed it revives the body on the prime material, so it is not clear if the Astral Spell ended, or that you can still go to the astral plane and still explore other planes. But if it was up to me, I'd judge that once you materialized on a different plane, the spell can't be used to more planes travels, just to revive your prime material body if the other body is destroyed.

[TristenC]

So the Priest spell description is a little lacking. The Wizard spell description for "Astral Spell" is clearer, and there are additional clarifications in the Planescape books. It's more suited for travel to other planes

[BishGada]

Well, I'll take your word for it.
So using Astral spell to go to the ethereal border for unlimited time (but need a way back such as the Dream Travel from Axid), or using Etherealness to go for 16 hours using Allahain spell, these are two legitimate options that will enable us explore the dungeon a bit more safely.

[TristenC]

Astral spell does not take you directly to the Ethereal border. It takes you to the Astral Plane, then you would need to find a portal to the Ethereal plane, then progress to the 'Border Ethereal', but yes it would be a 'permanent' duration provided nothing cut your silver cord.

Etherealness could be ended by the caster at any time prior to the duration as well.

[BishGada]

Thanks.
I already dropped a lead to discuss it in the game.

[TristenC]

Apparently there is a 3rd level priest spell Etherealness as well. In the PO book it lists it only as from thebsphere of 'Numbers', but in the PSC it lists it as both Astral and Numbers. So since PSC is a valid source, I'll say Ke'Sha has access to it.

The rules are a little different than the Wizard spell, but it does what he is intending: allows the priest to bring himself and others to the border erhereal and snoop around; returning everyone when he dismisses it or it expires (as long as they aren't inside solid objects when it does). Duration is Much shorter (1 turn + 1 round/lvl = 27 mins for Ke-Sha) than the Wiz version (1 hour/level), but they require very different spell levels to cast as well.

[BishGada]

Right! I've seen it and ignored it because of the duration and later forgot about it. It could be an option.
I guess the group (all the three of us ) need to agree on such move, and apparently the other two decided to let you and me discuss it between us, literally saying they don't meddle in the conversation.