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BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

A classic 2e Puzzle dungeon for High Level characters
Beware, this one is substantially longer and (IMHO) even harder than the legendary Tomb of Horrors!
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

Just before floating above the step, the unmistakable shiver of danger runs up Ke'sha's spine.
[Floating over activated his danger sense]
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

OK. But did the others already passed it?
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

So the skeleton would have stepped over first (avoiding contact) then the quasits, then Ke'Sha. I think everyone else has indicated they will avoid the last step, and of course he can control his own undead to do so as well
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

No problem.
BTW, I'm now working on the back up character spells.
It may take a while...
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

No worries. I'm sure you have some time before your main is even in real danger.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Sounds like a good sentence to put in the list of "famous last sentences" ;)
But I agree. With the "pact" it is hard to kill Ke'Sha.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

BishGada wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:37 pm Ke'Sha looks glumly at the 'soup' that was left from his undead. "Forward? Yeah, death is waiting forward. I'm counting on it." he says a bit distracted. "Let's climb down again."
===============================================================
(OOC: Hmm... I don't know if there are any such spells in 2nd edition. I think the purpleworm clerics of the death lord could have some ritual to make juju zombies and mummies.
I also found this link: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spel ... te-undead/
According to this link, if Ke'Sha had the spells and the REAL GOD will allow it (*nudge* *nudge*) then a mummy would cost about 400 gp and wight about 200gp. JuJu zombie about 100gp, etc. Nice selection of more sustainable undead. Still max HD is about 8 which could die quickly, but such stronger undead have some resistance that helps them survive better.)
So the cost of raising special undead is actually in the Complete Necromancer guide, that link you found looks like it is a third party source and for possibly 5th edition, def not 2nd ed. There is a list of costs in the 'Granted Powers' section of your character sheet.

As for which spells are available:
'Animate Dead' (lvl 3) for raising human/ demihuman/ humanoid undead as skeletons or zombies. (Normal components)

Animate Dead Monster (lvl 5, Necromancy) this would be for ogres, trolls, giants, bears, etc. Things with more than 3HD that are humanoid-ish (four limbs, head, etc) but much larger. Components require a small scrap pf the type of creature to animate.
[This would work on the dead trolls. 1 creature / 4 experience levels. Obviously you still need to stay within the total HD limit you are able to control.]

Summon Undead (Lvl 6 Necromancy) but then you have to sieze control of them. And you can't be sure what will show up.

Energy Drain: (Lvl 7 Necromancy) killing a humanoid with this can make it elligible to use 'Animate Dead' to bring it back as a Juju zombie without having to pay the steep cost (like 6,000 gp) required by the ritual
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

OK. Thanks! I was not aware of that.
So for animate dead monster: HD-wise the trolls would be similar to the monstrous zombies (6+6) right? Where is the total number of HD the priest can control? In the Turning table it says 2d6 creatures starting with the lowest HDs, but they count creatures and not HDs.

In the complete necromancer guide on purpleworm I found this under chapter 05\necromantic priesthoods\the lord of undead. Is this what you meant?
"Granted Powers: Charnelists have great authority over any undead they encounter. Starting at first level, they affect three times the regular number of creatures per successful turning attempt (this translates to 6d6 undead, plus 6d4 extra creatures when denoted by a * on Table 47 on page 67 of the DMG).
Once a priest reaches 6th level, he or she gains the ability to fashion exceptional undead; any skeletons or zombies which are animated (either by skeletal servant or animate dead) gain an additional +1 hit point per hit die.
Starting at 9th level, the priests learn all of the secret rites that create powerful undead. They first learn how to make ghouls or ghasts (9th level). Then, at 12th level, they learn to create ju-ju zombies and mummies. Finally, at 16th level, they learn the secrets of vampirism and lichdom. All of these rites require numerous sacrifices (from 1–20 fresh corpses) and vast amounts of wealth in the form of rare components (1,000–20,000 gp). Even if both were available in unlimited quantities, the ritual can still only be performed once a month and creates but one undead creature.
Eventually, once a priest has received permission from his or her deity (usually after performing some notable deed or quest for the benefit of the religion), the priest will undergo the process of performing the transformation upon him- or herself, joining the mighty Lord of Undead in (potentially) everlasting undeath. This is the ultimate dream for many such priests."
Would you agree it is reasonable to take from the x3 creatures under control that also the HD he can control is x3?

Another question regarding the turning table. Commanding undead marked in the table as T results in "automatically obey the evil priest" while D is "become completely subservient to the evil priest". What's the difference? They do what the priest wants in any case...

The ritual doesn't mention the time it takes, only it's freq. So I guess it is up to you. And the cost 1000 for ghast (5.5HD?) and 20000 for lich (11.5 HD) so it is about 3000gp for any extra HD above 5.5 more or less. Very expensive...

So, in general having several 'special' undead can be interesting and useful in different situations, even out of combat, while a horde of skeletons/zombies (priest of the undead lord can command 6d6+6d4 such creatures which is 12-50 creatures :) ) can slow down enemies and make them use a lot of attacks instead on the group.

To gain the first is either due rituals, but I don't think I have enough money to have 'several' creatures. Maybe 1.
I also found this: https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Create_U ... est_Spell) from the priests spells compendium, which could use to turn a monster to undead I assume.
The other more reasonable way is to use Summon undead and try to control it. Pity the table of turning doesn't go beyond 14th lvl.
To use energy drain to kill humanoid requires as many energy drains as his HD, no? So even 2HD creature would require 2 7th lvl spells + 1 3rd lvl spell to have the ju-ju zombie which it's main benefit is that it can be harmed only by +1 weapon, right? I'm not sure it worth the effort, unless I'm missing something.

It would be nice to know what do you think of this subject.

Thanks.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Hey. So any comments?
It is always nice to have an army of undead helping you, but you can tell if it interfere with the adventure or not.
But even without army of low level undead, having several specials would be unique quality for Ke'Sha.

Thanks.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

sorry, thought i had replied.
i'll talk about the hd/number of undead in a separate post

-So for monstrous zombies they basically have one extra HD, it would be 7+6, Troll skeleton would be 6+6.

-the exact cost for each undead is on your character sheet. I think it was elsewhere in the Necromancer's guide, or in the PSC but i forget exactly where. Yeah, it's a pretty expensive way to do it and the cost is for rare and special materials for the ritual. I would say the time is probably a week for something like a lich and maybe a day gor a ghoul. So probably not feasible in this way for a one-shot module.
make ghoul (1,000gp) ghast (4,800gp) ju-ju zombie (6,070gp) mummy (11,000gp), vampire or lich (20,000gp)
-Commanding undead is for seizing control of undead not currently under your control (wherever they came from) There is basically no difference for mindless undead. For normally free-willed or intelligent undead however, there is.
"automatically obey" would mean they were forced to do your bidding to the exact wording, but if they wanted to they can manipulate the way they go about it while following the exact wording. So if you said 'kill everyone you see' and they close their eyes, they dont have to kill anyone. To "become completely subservient to the evil priest" means they are Fully Devoted to you and incapable of such manipulation/ intentional misinterpretation (accidents can still happen)

-Ah yes, i forgot to list Create undead. That's a good one, and Ke'Sha would certainly have access to it. Create undead can only make ghouls from dead victims, so he would have to incapacitate a living victim for any of the other types

-Energy Drain drains 2 hd per casting. So a 2HD creature would only require 1 casting, but same concept. So yes, it's a significant spell to use on something with low HD, but it's waaay faster and cheaper than rituals.

+Ju-Ju zombies are Badass (imho). They
-have 3+12 HD (which is more like a 5HD creature). -They hit like 6 HD creatures,
-roll initiative instead of going last
-can be made to look like the living
-need a +1 wep to damage them,
-blunt and piercing weps do half dmg against them,
-can use normal weapons (swords, bows, spears, crossbows, etc)
-have 15% magic resistance,
-immune to mind affecting spells, psionics, Electricity and Magic missile
-Half damage from fire
-can climb walls like a thief (92%)
-are not mindless (understand full-sentence instructions with conditions, and use simple tactics and strategies)
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Thanks. I thought juju has only the magic weapon need to harm benefit... They indeed sound great with your description.
The trolls can't be used in Create Undead, but could be monstrous zombies, right?

When deciding how many HD Ke'Sha can permanently control, if you could take into account that according to his priesthood he has x3 creatures under control that would be great.

So if you approve:
* I guess Ke'Sha will gather the dead trolls and animate them tomorrow. Depending on how many you allow under control it may affect the number of animate monsters Ke'Sha will pray to.
* Also summon undead + control will be tested tomorrow (should be done before the animation since it consumes controlled HD)
* Next humanoid going to be the victim of Create Undead.

From spells resources point of view the spell imbue undead with spell ability can last for 17 days if not casting 17 spells through the undead. So having 2 of them on a daily list is kind of redundant. I guess one will go away, dispel good in the labyrinth? also go away... Undead regeneration heals at most 25HP while animate monster can create 4x(4+HD) so it's 16d8 HP at least ~60HP in average... So I assume that one goes down as well. If I had a pet lich or greater then ghasts undead, it might become useful, so it also goes of the list.
Summon undead can be taken occasionally, so for tomorrow it will replace Asphyxiate.

Changes in the spell list for tomorrow:
Occasional spells: Imbue undead with spell ability, Animate dead monsters, Iron Skin (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Ironskin_(Priest_Spell)

5th (5 + 2): Quest, Raise Dead, Air walk x2 (usual)
===>
5th (5 + 2): Quest, Animate monsters (x2? or IronSkin), Raise Dead, Imbue undead with spell ability, Air walk x2 (tomorrow)

6th (3): Asphyxiate, Word of Recall, Conj. Fire Elemental (usual)
=====>
6th (3): Summon undead, Word of Recall, Conj. Fire Elemental (tomorrow)
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

Yeah, the trolls would require Animate Dead Monster
And it raises 1/ every 4 experience levels per casting, so that would be up to 4 for him per casting.

Yes, his priesthood gives him 3x the number of undead he can control. While the roll for how many undead one can turn in a round is well defined, the max number that a priest can maintain long-term control over isn't. Arguably it could go to infinity with repeat castings or commands, given enough bodies, which is utterly absurd.

Animate dead gives a good guideline 1HD/level of the caster. Animate Undead Monster allows 1 creature/4levels, which muddies the waters.

So here is what I'm thinking:
-Ke'Sha is effectively a lvl 17 priest
-His specific priesthood allows him to affect 3x as many undead
-Let's call it 17*3 HD (51 HD) of 'permanent' control

That would mean that with one casting of Animate Dead Monster he could raise 4 trolls as zombies which would count as (7+6 HD)* 4 => 28 HD
or if he raised them as skeletons it would be 6*4=> 24 HD.

Thoughts?


-It looks like you don't have access to the Elemental Sphere, so that means Ironskin is out. Remember to check your sphere access when making your spell lists. Minor access means you can only do up to 3rd level spells in those spheres.

-It looks like Air walk falls into this as well, but I'll say you can keep that spell as a consolation.. (I guess we both missed it in char creation)

I was worried about Conjure fire elemental also, but ToM lists it in the Summoning sphere so you are good there. Protection from Fire is lvl 3 and also of the protection sphere so no problems on that one.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Thanks.
I think 51 HD is very strong. It gives a lot of possibilities:
4 Zombie trolls (28) + 2 wights (8) + Special (by summon and control - ~8) is 44HD and gives rooms for 2 ju-jus or few mindless undead to set the traps.
So it is strong. If summoned undead is ghost-like and can pass through walls it can even help much with the dungeon investigation.
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Undead
Wow... so many undead...

About the spells, yes, I've missed the sphere although when searching specific god I think I did check it briefly. I'll go over the list and see what goes instead of IronSkin. But the list is so long... :)
Are there flying undead creatures beside dracolich and ghost dragons? Animate dead monsters that had wings will let it fly?
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

I did find many interesting spells at level 5... and I got tired reading it so I didn't check level 6 and 7 (and also it might be good to check 1-4 levels as well)
Rising Rot (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Rising_R ... est_Spell))- damage.
Regenerate light wounds (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Regenera ... est_Spell)) - unfortunately this is from Healing sphere and not necromantic and also the moderate is level 4 and not 3. It is an interesting spell. Pity I can use only the level 1 form.
Moonfire (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Moonfire_(Priest_Spell)) - AOE damage. Especially to undead.
Create Ancient dead (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Create_A ... est_Spell)) - create mummy
True Seeing (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/True_See ... est_Spell)) - This version appears as All sphere, though I'm not sure what is the Shukenja...
Azuth's Exalted Triad (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Azuth%27 ... est_Spell)) - let you have an extra 2 slots if you use the same spell 3 times
Conjure Aurumvorax (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Conjure_ ... est_Spell)) - fights well I guess. Not sure if better than elemental.
Ebony Tendrils (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Ebony_Te ... est_Spell)) - Good damage
Gaseous Form (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Gaseous_ ... est_Spell)) - from its description it seems the priest can't change back and forth to this form. But it is still good for many applications.
Kami Absorption (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Kami_Abs ... est_Spell)) - Very unclear spell :)
Impregnable Mind (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Impregna ... est_Spell)) - Better safe than sorry
Impeding Permission (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Impeding ... est_Spell)) - If I read it correctly, it is very powerful strong, preventing an enemy to do almost anything while giving you info of it's plans. (if it fails in s.throw)
Illumination (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Illumina ... est_Spell)) - combines divination spells with time shifting for healing...
Misfortune (viewtopic.php?t=3501&start=75) - Good reducing enemy strength
Mindshatter( https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Mindshat ... est_Spell) ) - interesting applications
Might of Mystra (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Might_of ... est_Spell)) - This is interesting ability to mimic a spell someone else casts. It may be argueable if once you copied it's power you can use it later by prayer. It is also interesting since it last for a day. So you could cast it before sleep and the next day learn all other spells and have this extra power. (But the next day you won't have it). So it's like having extra half slot that you can use even for spells not from your spheres.
Melisander's Harp - https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Melisand ... est_Spell) - combination of sleep, slow and feather fall. interesting. Good defense from bullets
Memory Wrack - https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Memory_W ... est_Spell) - in my opinion interesting application in role playing adventure, less in battle (there are better spells for battles)
Lifebane (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Lifebane_(Priest_Spell)) - weakening + healing + another way to create ju-ju zombie
Life Steal ( https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Life_Ste ... est_Spell) ) - stronger vampiric touch in respect to HP above max duration and the ability to heal others, yet less HP than vampiric touch which is only level 3... But interesting anyhow,

Do you think you can enable me to edit the first post in the thread so I can add special spells to the character sheet so it is easy to track?
Spells with long time duration or for creating minions, or for niche uses, shouldn't be on the daily list, but it would be nice to have a section mentioning them so not to forget about them.

Thanks.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

For tomorrow I plan to learn the current spells:
1st (7 + 3): Bless x2, Protection From Evil, Spectral Senses, Undead Alacrity, Regenerate light wounds x5
2nd (7 + 3): Hold Personx3, Aidx2, Withdraw, Find Traps, Spiritual Hammer, Resist Turning, Dark Fire of Beshaba (Priest spells compedium)
3rd (7 + 2): Emotion Control, Life Drain x2, Animate dead, Protection from fire, Prayer, Dispel Magicx2, Remove Curse
4th (7 + 4): Heart Blight, unfailing endurance, Cause Insanity, Solipsism, Mental domination, Cloak of bravery, Free Actionx2, Geniusx3
5th (5 + 2): Imbue undead with spell ability, Raise Dead, Moonfire, Animate dead monster x2, Air walkx2
6th (3): Summon undeadx2, Word of Recall
7th (2): Resurrection, Energy drain
Ioun stones 9 spell levels: Resurrection, Hold Person

Cast Regenerate light wounds on all the group. It would be great if regeneration would be necromantic sphere... what do you think?
Then cast unfailing endurance on all
Then Summon Undead and see what comes. That's why I have the moonfire and resurrection that can be good against undead if Ke'Sha fails to control them.
Then Animate dead monster to have four troll zombies

Researching the big amount of spells here https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/All_Priest_Spells is a work in progress, but I think all their resources were approved by you in the past (it's mainly the Priest spells Compendium).

I found there a spell of 7th level called "make real" which is kind of permanency, but works only on objects, and more general in the spells effects. So it is interesting, and I bet has good implementations, yet I have to find them. (Enlarge/Reduce + Make Real. Animate Object + Make Real. Some kind of enchantments + make real.)

Thanks.
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